Test load temps

Hi all, I'm out to do some more load development tomorow.

I have read allot about preassure spikes with warm loads and being winter I was thinking of warming up my loads in a chilly bin with a hot water bottle to try to simulate summer which is when I do most of my shooting (I enjoy thos long summer days spotting and destroying hares).

What sort of temp would you guys be aiming for? I did a bit of googling and found measured temps in sumer are all over the place some as high as 42 down south, we don't get that high up here but we probably see mid to low 30s occasionally, this would be in direct sunlight mid day. Would you recomend warming the loads that much or just work on more of an average temp of like 25 ?

What sort of temps do you do most of your load development at?

Cheers all.

I would guess a average would be ok. It also depends on how close your going to keep your load to any pressure signs.
If you keep a bit below pressure signs, when summer rolls around I doubt your going to blow yourself up. But if it's your load for your rifle and your the one shooting it, just remember to monitor cases for pressure as the temps heat up. Think of it as a unfinished load until summer has passed.
I wouldn't give the load to a friend or learner who won't keep pressure in mind, at least until proven.
What caliber are you shooting?

6.5x55 with 140gr sst for know, cheers man.

I want to be below pressure signs I was just worried if I loaded up with the current temps when summer rolled around I don't want to have to rework the load to get back under pressure signs, what you have suggested sounds about right to me just thought I would see what others are doing. I'm the only one shooting this rifle but you can't tell what the pressure is doing till after the shot.

I hear ya, I try to mostly do loads in summer, the heat and less busy.
I have done one or two in the winter, the load has been up there but not maxing out and it was fine. It wasn't a super duper long range gun so I wasn't too worried.
6.5 should be a pretty mean hare rifle, good times.

Every powder is different, some powders get "hotter" as temps cool which is the opposite of conventional thinking.
Do some googling of the temp sensitivity of the powder you are using and then test for yourself.
Unless you are right on maximum or using some very temp sensitive powder you really shouldn't see big differences in NZ climate.
Even if you said average 5 degc winter and 25deg summer that is still only a 20 deg spread.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Every powder is different, some powders get "hotter" as temps cool which is the opposite of conventional thinking.
Do some googling of the temp sensitivity of the powder you are using and then test for yourself.
Unless you are right on maximum or using some very temp sensitive powder you really shouldn't see big differences in NZ climate.
Even if you said average 5 degc winter and 25deg summer that is still only a 20 deg spread.

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I didn't think about that, too spoilt using adi powders which I believe are mostly pretty good with temp changes.

I think VNcam is on the right track. Most of the internet drama's about temp sensitive powder seems to come out of America. Where temps can go from -10C' up through 40C' .
If it was a real serious problem I think tins of powder would have to come with warnings about leaving the 5th fired round in the breech for too long, if you get my drift.

if you are not pushing the envelope eg 2-3grns above book max or trying for that last fps you should be fine...... a nice accurate load that is a bit below max will be better to shoot and easier on components and shooter anyway..... firing off a load and seeing primers looking like pancakes is NOT a pleasant experience,far better to find happy medium and live longer.

I ended up throwing the ammo box in a chilly bin with a hot weat sack and a thermometer, it bought the ammo up a few degrees to about 24-25 not to scientific though, it was a pretty sunny day so probably didnt need to bother.

Book max is a bit vague as its 6.5x55 and all the load data I can find is for older actions, after a lot of looking around I have found for 140gr most people are working up to a max of 47-47.5gr 2209, that was one of the things I wanted to confirm today, got very light extracted wipe at 47 and a clear wipe at 47.2 so stopped there.

I am trialing this 10 shot style of load development that's all the rage on youtube mostly just for somthing to do, results we're interesting.

My chrono may be reading a bit high not sure it's new first time out.

45.5 2716fps this was mostly just a check/test load to make sure I'm not way out or somthing
46 2784fps
46.25 2804
46.5 ERR realy wish I had this read
46.75 2826
47 2850
47.25 2848

So from that there is a flat spot in 46.25-46.75 as that's only a 22 fps jump for .5gr every other .25gr was atleast a 20 fps jump excluding the 47 and 47.25 which read the same but did have slight pressure, I may explore this if a load at 46.5 doesn't group well but I'm happy with 46.5 and if that velocity is correct I feel I'm pushing it hard enough.

So next is to load up a few rounds at 46.3, 46.5, 46.7 and see how they go for group size, as I say this is mostly an experiment, if this actually works and gets me onto a go grouping load without having to shoot lots of groups is a fair advantage, it's tricky for me to get to a decent shooting bench setup for load development and this cuts it down to one trip to confirm the final groups.

Sorry need a few more space bars in there next time to make it easier to read

Between zero degrees and 30 degrees, I get 110fps faster at the warmer temp. Also, much higher pressure. Doing load development in winter (in the snow like I did), ensure that you are very aware of the increased pressure when warmer and make suitable allowance for it.

Not sure if any body is interested in this but I went out and did some more testing today, I got an average of 2730 fps today with the rounds at 12 degrees, that gives me a velocity change of about 85 fps just with around a 12 degree temp difference.

Good to know rusl, but did that fps change induce any other pressure sign changes?
I'm sold on the OCW method now for that last grouping session.

This load was not showing pressure signs at the higher temps and none today with the lower temps, lower velocity with lower temps so I'm assuming lower preassure, cant tell though.

What are you using for a Crony ?

If its not a top end chrony you are wasting your time. Same as this 10 shot theory. You might as well just pick a random powder charge.
A lot of loads will give you an ES of 30-40 fps over three shots, so you take one random shot and try and use that to identitfy a node? its bollocks. If you want to use the plateau theory you need an accurate average speed and you cannot get that from one shot per load. Its internet bollocks,
Did I mention its bollocks? well I think it is.

The issue I see with testing would be the temp of the rifle action, which would change the ammo temp fairly quickly with the relative masses involved.

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Originally Posted by gadgetman

The issue I see with testing would be the temp of the rifle action, which would change the ammo temp fairly quickly with the relative masses involved.

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Yes if Im testing for temp /velocity diferential its both the rifle and ammo at the required temp. I cant confirm if its anymore relevant but I think it is rules out another variable.
I remember reading somewhere that it takes some time for temp change to alter the actual powder temp though.

Chronograph is a crony beta master. So probably not the most accurate, 99.5% accurate if you belive the box :thumbsup:

I'm no expert and only trying to experiment and learn. Just putting up my results if people are interested.

It might be all bollocks and jibberish but it does appear to have worked for me, 6 shots inside an inch and the 7th just outside, all over a backpack no rear bag so I imagine the shooting wasn't perfect. Im not saying that if I went and picked a random load and shot that it would shoot worse, maybe I'll try that next.

To me the loading up 3 rounds at each powder level and shooting a group then going off the smallest group makes no more sense, as its plenty easy to bring in shooter error and when your comparing 3x sub inch groups you can end up kind of chasing your tail.

I did note that the first shot was the slowest of the group but I don't think the chamber would have been hot enough after 1 shot to increase the temp of second round enough to make a difference.

There seams to be plenty of high end guns made and long range shooting done by guys on the forum, so I imagine that this has all been tested and the best ways have been sorted out. But to be honest thos guys don't seam to put up on you tube or here how they come up with there results so I'm only going off the information I can find.

If some of the guys that are actually long range shooting have input that would be great, I'm curios as to if you account for various load temps? And how you do it, do you have multiple drop charts? Or does no one actually bother and just go for the mid ground?

Also what is your load development process so far this thread we have one for the 10 shot method and one against?

What sort of criteria do you have before you take for example a 800y shot on a deer ? Are you always able to hit 1/2moa no matter the temp or shooting position? Or if you hit 1moa is that enough. Are some of the shots just kind of afluke and we dont hear about all the misses?

I can shoot great groups off a bench, but somtimes my field shooting is terrible. I am just curious, eperimenting and looking for input. I'm no where there yet I limit myself to about 3-350 but there's guys here that do out to 1000y on the regular.

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Originally Posted by rusl

Chronograph is a crony beta master. So probably not the most accurate, 99.5% accurate if you belive the box :thumbsup:

I'm no expert and only trying to experiment and learn. Just putting up my results if people are interested.

It might be all bollocks and jibberish but it does appear to have worked for me, 6 shots inside an inch and the 7th just outside, all over a backpack no rear bag so I imagine the shooting wasn't perfect. Im not saying that if I went and picked a random load and shot that it would shoot worse, maybe I'll try that next.

To me the loading up 3 rounds at each powder level and shooting a group then going off the smallest group makes no more sense, as its plenty easy to bring in shooter error and when your comparing 3x sub inch groups you can end up kind of chasing your tail.

I did note that the first shot was the slowest of the group but I don't think the chamber would have been hot enough after 1 shot to increase the temp of second round enough to make a difference.

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Mate you are not looking at this subjectively. Its part of the human condition when you want something to work to then ignore basic principals to get the outcome you want.
You are claiming here that "it seems to have worked " when you have no control group. Nothing at all to compare it to. Look at my earlier post. The 10 shot method relys on finding a plateau
of velocity. To do this you need an accurate average velocity and you simply cant get that from one shot. Its statistically impossible. If you shoot 3 shot groups you will have a sample 3 times the size of one shot so it has some relevance. 5 shot groups even more.
Here is an example from some loads I put past the labradar for a mate going up in 1/2 grain increments. Ill list the first shot from each 3 shot group then the second then the third. Each will represent what you might see if you only fire one shot for the 10 shot theory.
First shot
2744
2805
2840
2905
2968

Second shot from each string
2783
2818
2881
2925
2969

Third shot
2747
2825
2867
2900
3007

Any combination of first second or third shot could make up the string for the 10 shot example. so its all just random .
Now if I list the averages of each 3 shot group we see a fairly consistent increase of 50ish fps for every 1/2 grain added. No plateau at all.

2758
2816
2863
2912
2981

Ill try and get to some more of your questions latter but my dinner is getting cold

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Mate you are not looking at this subjectively. Its part of the human condition when you want something to work to then ignore basic principals to get the outcome you want.
You are claiming here that "it seems to have worked " when you have no control group. Nothing at all to compare it to. Look at my earlier post. The 10 shot method relys on finding a plateau
of velocity. To do this you need an accurate average velocity and you simply cant get that from one shot. Its statistically impossible. If you shoot 3 shot groups you will have a sample 3 times the size of one shot so it has some relevance. 5 shot groups even more.
Here is an example from some loads I put past the labradar for a mate going up in 1/2 grain increments. Ill list the first shot from each 3 shot group then the second then the third. Each will represent what you might see if you only fire one shot for the 10 shot theory.
First shot
2744
2805
2840
2905
2968

Second shot from each string
2783
2818
2881
2925
2969

Third shot
2747
2825
2867
2900
3007

Any combination of first second or third shot could make up the string for the 10 shot example. so its all just random .
Now if I list the averages of each 3 shot group we see a fairly consistent increase of 50ish fps for every 1/2 grain added. No plateau at all.

2758
2816
2863
2912
2981

Ill try and get to some more of your questions latter but my dinner is getting cold

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Cheers for that.
I can fully see what your saying, I am trying to look at it subjectively but I'm fairly new to it and every thing I know comes from books and the Internet. I have never had any one teach me about hunting or shooting, I'm fully self taught which is pretty scary really. I asked a couple of guys at my local deer stalkers about reloading when I first started and the response was "just load up at book max" and you'll be rite, got a funny look when I asked about full length sizing vs neck sizing so I gave up.

I did come to the conclusion that you really needed to shoot at least 2 or 3 shots just to get an accurate reading as my chrono didn't even read one shot.

Do you fire all your loads in one go? I find after about 15 -20 shots my focus is starting to fade and this is where I start to worry if groups are opening up because of me or the load.

Sorry for all the questions but why do you think that one load is more accurate than another then? The velocity node thing made sense to my mind as that would have the lowest ES which should make the groups more repeatable, if there's no velocity flat spot why do you think that certain loads come out more accurate? I have heard of barrel vibrations or whip, I think that all ties in with getting the bullet to arrive at the muzzle in a certain sweet spot which I would imagine would be the bottom or top of the whip as there would be a slight slowing, stop and reverse of the muzzle moment.

Only fire 3 - 5 shots max, then stop & let barrel cool down ( I allow 5 mins and more in summer) before your shoot the next string.

Ok. Im not saying that looking for a flat spot in the velocity wont be good place to start, I am saying you cant find it with a single shot per charge weight. You might fluke it but getting really lucky would be your best hope. The optical chrony you are using will hinder that process even more ,as light changes so will the readings.
Yes you are looking for a node in the velocity range that has the muzzel in the quietest/motionless faze as the bullet exits. How you find it is pretty big topic, books have been written on it.

First up though , what is your goal? what are you trying to achieve with this rifle and ammunition?
If its hunting deer to 300 yds then the group you described above is ok. Load up and go shoot some targets, a few groups at 100 to establish the genuine accuracy of you,the rifle and load and then out to 300 yds from different positions to see what your limitations are. You will benefit a hell of a lot more from shooting an ok load a lot than trying to tune a 1/2moa load.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Ok. Im not saying that looking for a flat spot in the velocity wont be good place to start, I am saying you cant find it with a single shot per charge weight. You might fluke it but getting really lucky would be your best hope. The optical chrony you are using will hinder that process even more ,as light changes so will the readings.
Yes you are looking for a node in the velocity range that has the muzzel in the quietest/motionless faze as the bullet exits. How you find it is pretty big topic, books have been written on it.

First up though , what is your goal? what are you trying to achieve with this rifle and ammunition?
If its hunting deer to 300 yds then the group you described above is ok. Load up and go shoot some targets, a few groups at 100 to establish the genuine accuracy of you,the rifle and load and then out to 300 yds from different positions to see what your limitations are. You will benefit a hell of a lot more from shooting an ok load a lot than trying to tune a 1/2moa load.

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You know that scene in the movie shooter were he shoots the soup can at over a mile :thumbsup: to be able to do that's the dream.

But realistically I am just wanting to learn and improve, yea my groups and load are fine for hunting, i have never actually shot past 180ish while hunting big game, i shoot further in the summer practicing on hares as shot placment isnt to critical, as long as I hit the hare it's dead fast. And i shoot much further on paper. I can punch less than inch groups at 100y easy off good rests etc. One day I would like to be confident to take say a 600y shot if that shot is the only one available and it's an animal of a life time. But I mostly just want to improve and learn, I have no set goals, I am happy to hunt within my limitations and I'm probably much harder on myself than most.

What I would like to do is keep improving and if that's just trigger time that's fine I can do that, but the reason I came here was to find out what the guys that can make thos 600,800 and 1000y plus shots are doing. If no one is worried about the different velocities they get from different load temps and they are making thos shots consistently then it probably does not matter, but it may also be the reason why i can hit way out some times and not others, as the day cools off am i lossing enough veocity to make my load hit 1 inch lower at 500y? Should i have a seperate drop chart for when the temps drop? It is a subject I have researched around a bit and found not much information.

When I was involved in motorsport the quickest way to get your self into a top 10 positions or podium was to learn from the guys in the top ten positions, once I started asking them questions they let me into small secrets that can make massive differences in vehicle setup and how it behaves, things I found out 90% of the competitors didn't know and were I'm guessing, to embarrassed to ask about. This is where I assume the top shooters hang out so I'm asking the dumb questions trying to speed up my learning. It's much easier to have a handful of guys that know what they are talking about set you straight rather than have to test it all and learn from the beginning.

I am trying to learn what others are doing and what sort of standards they are holding themselves to before making thos long shots, in saying this though I can understand why people are not so keen to come forward with advice on some of the finer points as there is always differing of opinions and the discussions can get pretty nasty, I have read some of the old threads where people got absolutely ripped into for sharing thier opinions or results. I have had some great help over the years from some of the members here but it is ushally via a pm after I have asked for help, I do believe most members are very helpful but also worried to point sombody in the wrong direction, that is why I say things like "it appears to have worked" I haven't gone as far to prove it has worked yet so I say appears and then hopefully nobody takes my word as gospel that it is the best way to do it.

In saying that it's good to have a bit of discussion saved on the forum and i really appreciate your input, that way when people come looking the information is there for them.

Sorry that became a bit of a novel I just thought I if I explain where I am coming from it may be easier for people to add some input.

Cheers :yaeh am not durnk:

Aye, you never stop learning.

The more I practice actual shooting at distance in all conditions the better I get. I used to think hitting a large steel target at 300m consistently was a good day now days that seems to be the closest distance I shoot and the steel plates are getting smaller and smaller and I EXPECT to hit them every time.

The most interesting thing I have learned being at various ranges while others are shooting is what other peoples accuracy expectations (and capabilities actually) are.
I think powder temperature is only a very small variable compared to things like wind, atmospheric conditions, technique and having consistent ammo etc.

@mikee this is what I'm trying to get info on, I don't know others that are interested in shooting like I do, my mates are happy if they can hit a bucket at 50y so I have no benchmark to compare and no one to steal ideas off.

I am inclined to agree the load temps thing is most likely a bit of a tangent I have gone off on mostly because it's what I posted about to start with. If load temps are a minor thing what would you consider the priorities, consistent ammo and wind reading obviously, how consistent is consistent ammo? If mines not meeting the bench mark should I be looking at neck turning instead of temperatures?

What's your benchmark of accuracy?

Im just throwing questions out here to try and get the discussion going I'm not try to target any one person especially. But if you are shooting long range or super accurate please add your opinions. I am happy to discuss any area where people feel there are areas for improvment I may not have sorted yet. Good solid shooting techniques are only going to come with practise but any of the other areas I have not sorted are still going to hold me back.

I will just add so you get an idea of where I am at, I can hit a 5 inch plate at 350y but I can't do it every time, like you say you expect to hit it now every time, I am not surprised when I miss it happens often enough. This is where I'm starting to look at other things more seriously, is it me or some other variable I'm not noticing.

Mate I think your questions are a little scattered. You're worried about temp induced velocity change which is a small part of a big picture, yet seem to be at the very beginning of load development. Talking about a 1 inch drop at 500yds yet the group from your test is a touch over 1 MOA so it would at best print a 5 inch group at 500yd in perfect conditions with perfect shooting.
This can be a long process from a cold start. Small steps ,from the beginning, no point getting ahead of yourself.
Shoot a lot of paper?steel, it dosnt lie , work on the load with the OCW process or something similar. I personally use a basic 3 shot group test for powder, looking for group size and ES ,SD, followed by seating depth if needed. maybe neck tension and primer change if I need further tweaking.
Theres little point in sweating the small stuff till you've got the big stuff sorted.

For the record, with temp sensitivity, once I have a proven accurate load ( more than 3 consecutive groups on different days ) with a good ES and SD in single figures(hopefully) I will shoot it in the temps I think are relevant and note the speed and drops. This used to be a slow process but the accuracy of the labradar is proving a great time saver. Once I have the change in fps per deg of temp change I can enter it into the ballistic app on my phone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

I will just add so you get an idea of where I am at, I can hit a 5 inch plate at 350y but I can't do it every time, like you say you expect to hit it now every time, I am not surprised when I miss it happens often enough. This is where I'm starting to look at other things more seriously, is it me or some other variable I'm not noticing.

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The advice i got was

Quote:

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When you can hit your plate consistently at range "x" then get a smaller plate and keep going. when you can hit that plate move it back 50 or 100m and keep going till you are happy

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikee

The advice i got was

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:D You know thats not true, there is always; more yards, smaller plates , bigger guns and more money to spend so there is no "happy"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Mate I think your questions are a little scattered. You're worried about temp induced velocity change which is a small part of a big picture, yet seem to be at the very beginning of load development. Talking about a 1 inch drop at 500yds yet the group from your test is a touch over 1 MOA so it would at best print a 5 inch group at 500yd in perfect conditions with perfect shooting.
This can be a long process from a cold start. Small steps ,from the beginning, no point getting ahead of yourself.
Shoot a lot of paper?steel, it dosnt lie , work on the load with the OCW process or something similar. I personally use a basic 3 shot group test for powder, looking for group size and ES ,SD, followed by seating depth if needed. maybe neck tension and primer change if I need further tweaking.
Theres little point in sweating the small stuff till you've got the big stuff sorted.

For the record, with temp sensitivity, once I have a proven accurate load ( more than 3 consecutive groups on different days ) with a good ES and SD in single figures(hopefully) I will shoot it in the temps I think are relevant and note the speed and drops. This used to be a slow process but the accuracy of the labradar is proving a great time saver. Once I have the change in fps per deg of temp change I can enter it into the ballistic app on my phone.

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Cheers mate that last bit is great info, that's pretty much what I'm looking for, you are testing your load on 3 different days, your looking for an es of single digits, and then looking at temps once that's sorted, that's all I'm really after, trying to figure out the order to look at different things and how well you prove your load is a good load. And that yes you are actually looking at temp sensitivity way down the track but once your happy with every thing else it is some thing worth testing and recording. Hope that makes sense.

I was just curious if people were doing it or not. And how you were going about it and using the info in the field.

Also that group I put up in the testing, that wasn't shot from a bench it was over a back pack, I was mostly interested in the velocity so I was more practicing my field position shooting.

Cheers for your input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikee

The advice i got was

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Cheers mate I will have to get some more plates, I guess alot of its just confidence in my equipment and practice, atleast practice is fun:thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rusl

Cheers mate that last bit is great info, that's pretty much what I'm looking for, you are testing your load on 3 different days, your looking for an es of single digits, and then looking at temps once that's sorted, that's all I'm really after, trying to figure out the order to look at different things and how well you prove your load is a good load. And that yes you are actually looking at temp sensitivity way down the track but once your happy with every thing else it is some thing worth testing and recording. Hope that makes sense.

I was just curious if people were doing it or not. And how you were going about it and using the info in the field.

Also that group I put up in the testing, that wasn't shot from a bench it was over a back pack, I was mostly interested in the velocity so I was more practicing my field position shooting.

Cheers for your input.

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No, Im happy with Es in the 20s. Lower is better but chasing it is an exercise in diminishing returns. SD in single figures is good but again it can be futile chasing it. .
And to quantify, I only look at Powder temp for specific applications, general hunting loads to 600 ish I wont bother at all. From 600yds and out Ill check it but its not easy to accurately quantify and getting it wrong could be worse than not doing it at all. Its also not always a linear increase.