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Thread: Testing a conventional approach to load development

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gimp Testing a conventional... 01-07-2024, 08:04 PM
Micky Duck So you are slowly coming to... 01-07-2024, 08:20 PM
gimp Thank you, but I have always... 01-07-2024, 08:28 PM
Micky Duck Awesome. We can definitely... 01-07-2024, 08:47 PM
STC do I get this right? it... 01-07-2024, 09:01 PM
gimp 55 by my count, but I ran out... 01-07-2024, 09:26 PM
STC sorry was not intending to... 01-07-2024, 09:31 PM
gimp Can you explain what value... 01-07-2024, 09:32 PM
STC I was pointing out the irony... 01-07-2024, 09:38 PM
Shamus_ gimp I like your work here... 01-07-2024, 09:40 PM
gimp It's immeasurably damaged.... 01-07-2024, 09:41 PM
STC Ill see if i can find some... 01-07-2024, 09:57 PM
Shamus_ None the guy is a troll just... 01-07-2024, 09:39 PM
No.3 So, just to chuck a variable... 01-07-2024, 10:08 PM
Tentman If you take a look at... 01-07-2024, 10:12 PM
gimp I'm interested to test for... 01-07-2024, 10:15 PM
7mm tragic I may be wrong, however if my... 01-07-2024, 10:42 PM
Gkp Thanks - great write up. 01-07-2024, 10:26 PM
RUMPY I'm not a reloader, although... 01-07-2024, 10:35 PM
chainsaw Thanks gimp for sharing your... 01-07-2024, 10:42 PM
gimp Technically I believe the... 01-07-2024, 11:24 PM
Micky Duck Why bother??? To show that... 02-07-2024, 09:33 AM
Tentman It would be interesting to... 01-07-2024, 10:56 PM
No.3 I suspect the only way this... 02-07-2024, 09:19 AM
STC Other factors that have not... 02-07-2024, 09:31 AM
gimp 4x 5rd groups actually. ... 02-07-2024, 10:20 AM
Trout By the number of deer in the... 02-07-2024, 12:53 PM
gimp Yeah both of mine are full.... 02-07-2024, 12:54 PM
STC Barrel cooling does matter,... 02-07-2024, 08:47 PM
gimp Ok so there are several... 03-07-2024, 08:42 AM
6x47 Have no idea of the basis for... 03-07-2024, 09:27 PM
gimp Can you provide some sources... 02-07-2024, 12:33 PM
No.3 Short answer for 5 round... 02-07-2024, 01:32 PM
Micky Duck Right so I do believe there... 02-07-2024, 09:31 AM
gimp What level of precision is... 02-07-2024, 10:25 AM
grandpamac Greetings gimp and all, A... 02-07-2024, 09:56 AM
Micky Duck I did seven months ago and... 02-07-2024, 10:29 AM
SPEARONZ Cool thread This is by no... 02-07-2024, 11:36 AM
trooper90 As a very average shot not a... 02-07-2024, 11:50 AM
Makros I have non-hunting and non... 02-07-2024, 12:09 PM
Floundering Around Thanks gimp for this post.... 02-07-2024, 12:48 PM
Pop Shot My initial thoughts too, but... 02-07-2024, 01:05 PM
Sika 8 :roll: When will you grow up... 02-07-2024, 02:58 PM
PerazziSC3 I think you might be missing... 02-07-2024, 04:30 PM
Tentman Nailed it! As for shooter... 02-07-2024, 04:57 PM
No.3 All good if it's not... 02-07-2024, 05:29 PM
gimp I'm not sure about shooter... 02-07-2024, 06:14 PM
gimp How much muscle fatigue would... 02-07-2024, 02:18 PM
No.3 Muscle fatigue is a... 02-07-2024, 03:18 PM
Micky Duck Susan Boyle anyone??? 02-07-2024, 04:45 PM
Tahr Im a 3 shot sight in guy but... 02-07-2024, 05:01 PM
Pop Shot Yeah, I didn't think of like... 02-07-2024, 05:12 PM
stug Makes me feel good about my... 02-07-2024, 06:06 PM
7mm tragic I've been mucking around for... 02-07-2024, 07:06 PM
Ground Control I’m following this thread... 02-07-2024, 07:49 PM
gimp I do have a suspicion that... 02-07-2024, 07:52 PM
gimp It certainly has no bearing... 02-07-2024, 07:55 PM
Ground Control I agree with that to a point... 02-07-2024, 08:28 PM
Ground Control Well that just adds to the... 02-07-2024, 08:27 PM
gimp The most logical explanation... 02-07-2024, 08:29 PM
Makros So, just like pretty much all... 02-07-2024, 08:43 PM
STC There are just too many... 02-07-2024, 08:50 PM
Makros Would appear to me that many... 02-07-2024, 09:03 PM
Tentman Haha, yup they like kidding... 02-07-2024, 09:17 PM
gqhoon Whether they have the best... 02-07-2024, 08:41 PM
Tentman Hey STC you should come along... 02-07-2024, 10:01 PM
Dicko It might not be fatigue from... 02-07-2024, 11:13 PM
Tentman Interesting. I only know... 02-07-2024, 11:19 PM
Dicko Testing a conventional... 02-07-2024, 11:31 PM
Sidetrack “1. Define your requirements... 02-07-2024, 11:37 PM
gimp Is there any evidence of... 03-07-2024, 06:46 AM
grandpamac Greetings gimp, I do... 03-07-2024, 09:46 AM
Sidetrack In a nutshell, that’s the... 03-07-2024, 10:09 AM
gimp Common sense still applies.... 03-07-2024, 10:16 AM
Sidetrack Ignore this, can’t seem to... 03-07-2024, 10:29 AM
Micky Duck Two 270s get loaded for from... 04-07-2024, 11:41 AM
T.FOYE Being honest, i feel the two... 03-07-2024, 07:53 AM
caberslash Validates my process which is... 03-07-2024, 08:40 AM
gimp The stress-test of the way I... 03-07-2024, 08:43 AM
gimp Thank you. Your velocity... 03-07-2024, 09:55 AM
Makros Well this is entirely another... 03-07-2024, 10:41 AM
grandpamac Greeting gimp and all, First... 03-07-2024, 11:55 AM
caberslash Sorry gimp if I missed this,... 03-07-2024, 10:10 AM
gimp No, started with a fouled... 03-07-2024, 10:13 AM
NewbieZAR I load 10 shots, each at an... 03-07-2024, 10:36 AM
gimp "pressure signs" on brass are... 03-07-2024, 10:37 AM
NewbieZAR I think knowing your rifle... 03-07-2024, 10:56 AM
Ground Control After reading through the... 03-07-2024, 12:41 PM
gimp For those interested in... 03-07-2024, 06:58 PM
Makros gimp I don't doubt your... 04-07-2024, 11:57 AM
gimp The targex group I have the... 04-07-2024, 12:05 PM
Makros Funnily enough, with these SD... 04-07-2024, 12:34 PM
Roarless20 Brilliant insight into the... 05-07-2024, 09:51 AM
gimp Either of those is of course... 03-07-2024, 08:11 PM
Hugh Shields Bloody hell! Detailed and... 04-07-2024, 01:29 AM
andyanimal31 The more you know the less... 04-07-2024, 06:25 AM
Pop Shot Applies to pretty much... 04-07-2024, 09:01 AM
Tentman Gotta like science and... 04-07-2024, 12:20 PM
Makros Also, nothing wrong with your... 04-07-2024, 01:35 PM
gimp From a practical perspective... 04-07-2024, 01:53 PM
Tentman From another practical... 04-07-2024, 02:12 PM
Shamus_ This has so far been one of... 04-07-2024, 02:13 PM
Sidetrack Gotta love gun nerds!! It... 04-07-2024, 04:31 PM
Dama dama gimp thank you for spending... 04-07-2024, 06:05 PM
whanahuia I get a hint of confirmation... 05-07-2024, 09:24 AM
gimp The simplified approach. Same... 06-07-2024, 03:06 PM
BillyDixon I sort of agree with STC. ... 06-07-2024, 03:19 PM
chainsaw What’s the barrel length of... 06-07-2024, 03:20 PM
gimp This rifle is something like... 06-07-2024, 03:29 PM
Tentman Sometimes you just have to... 06-07-2024, 08:31 PM
Fisherman I'm a slow learner as... 06-07-2024, 09:09 PM
gimp That's the hunting accuracy... 06-07-2024, 09:14 PM
PerazziSC3 Is that numbering in order of... 06-07-2024, 08:49 PM
Tentman Nope. I just analysed them... 06-07-2024, 08:59 PM
dannyb Had a crack at a 20 round... 07-07-2024, 05:00 PM
gimp 100m or 100y? dannyb 08-07-2024, 11:43 AM
dannyb yards, of note the targets... 08-07-2024, 02:03 PM
Tentman And here is the latest... 21-07-2024, 08:42 PM
Hirahillbilly I just found this thread. Its... 20-11-2024, 06:09 AM
gimp I recently got a new rifle. I... 20-11-2024, 07:16 AM
gimp When I say I "picked a load",... 20-11-2024, 09:41 AM
Hirahillbilly Cool, thanks. Coincidentally... 20-11-2024, 11:28 AM
McNotty Thought I’d come back and... 14-02-2025, 02:16 PM
Stocky I managed to get to the range... 06-03-2025, 07:32 AM
gimp Please post up the data! Very... 06-03-2025, 07:59 AM
Stocky That's the plan. One thing I... 06-03-2025, 10:04 AM
Tentman A wee thought on this. The... 06-03-2025, 10:36 AM
gimp Sure, a reloading... 06-03-2025, 08:05 PM
Hunterdave Quite surprised theres not... 13-03-2025, 10:55 PM
Tahr Cortina's are so last year.... 14-03-2025, 09:39 AM
zimmer I stopped watching him ages... 14-03-2025, 10:12 AM
Hunterdave No just that any load can be... 14-03-2025, 01:18 PM
Tentman Show us your groups . . .... 14-03-2025, 03:21 PM
gimp Hunterdave The focus is on... 20-03-2025, 11:23 AM
Roarless20 Hunterdave Get ready for the... 14-03-2025, 09:19 AM
Kelton Admin please remove me 14-03-2025, 09:25 AM
Hunterdave Haha well they are at the top... 14-03-2025, 12:13 PM
McNotty I’ll change my mind when some... 14-03-2025, 11:24 AM
Hunterdave The podcast I watched did... 14-03-2025, 01:17 PM
Hunterdave https://youtu.be/rFI1DyaBwho?s... 14-03-2025, 05:26 PM
Micky Duck Requirements.....now there is... 20-03-2025, 11:48 AM
Hunterdave Good enough for what your... 20-03-2025, 02:41 PM
gimp All the more important to... 01-04-2025, 07:17 PM
inglishill Man, I just got shooters... 20-03-2025, 12:12 PM
Micky Duck That's why I dual load.... Or... 20-03-2025, 05:18 PM
inglishill Yeah, I definitely carry... 20-03-2025, 06:27 PM
gimp So I have a box of 68gr... 01-04-2025, 07:29 PM
gimp So - what now? 01-04-2025, 07:50 PM
whanahuia You pick the best group, and... 01-04-2025, 08:40 PM
earplay Speaking from experience, I... 03-04-2025, 10:25 AM
gimp So following the seating... 01-04-2025, 07:48 PM
Tentman Can't wait for the first bite... 01-04-2025, 07:52 PM
gimp Genuinely - advocates of... 01-04-2025, 07:58 PM
NZ_noddy Seriously, with only 47 left,... 01-04-2025, 08:26 PM
McNotty I’d love to see you load up... 01-04-2025, 09:02 PM
Roarless20 ^^ This would be great to... 02-04-2025, 08:20 AM
gimp Which seating depth would you... 02-04-2025, 10:27 AM
McNotty Let’s get some close to solid... 02-04-2025, 10:37 AM
caberslash 'Load development' is a hobby... 02-04-2025, 10:27 AM
gimp Shortest OAL you mean as the... 02-04-2025, 10:40 AM
McNotty Just chose it because it’s... 02-04-2025, 11:02 AM
gimp I am interested in doing the... 02-04-2025, 11:24 AM
gimp This figure comes from... 02-04-2025, 11:49 AM
Tentman My worst fears, Gimp is going... 02-04-2025, 11:12 AM
gimp The sacrifices I make, for... 02-04-2025, 11:16 AM
gimp All current shots fall within... 02-04-2025, 11:27 AM
Hunterdave Cool to see some results,... 03-04-2025, 06:32 PM
gimp To be clear the "changes"... 03-04-2025, 06:47 PM
gimp Okay so I went and shot these... 05-04-2025, 12:17 PM
gimp Some further reflections - ... 05-04-2025, 03:51 PM
Gibo I am so glad fishing isn't... 05-04-2025, 04:46 PM
gimp Fortunely I've done it for... 06-04-2025, 08:11 AM
Bagheera Here's a 10 shot group from... Yesterday, 10:15 PM
  1. #1
    By Popular Demand gimp's Avatar
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    Testing a conventional approach to load development

    A conventional approach to load development is:

    1. Select a powder and projectile that appear suitable
    2. Identify the OAL or comparator length to the lands
    3. Load a series of rounds in increasing increments, generally .3 or .5 grain, generally 3 rounds at each increment - from some point up to around or above book max charge
    4. Shoot these
    5. Identify the "best" load that meets velocity goals - assessment of best based on group size, velocity SD, or a combination of the 2
    6. Load more rounds to confirm the result
    7. Go back to the range, shoot again, start trying to "fine tune" when the confirmation loads do not meet the same level of performance as the initial test

    This is the way that I was taught to develop a load, and this is the way that many of us do it. But is it effective and efficient?

    I wanted to test whether this process works. Does this process allow us to select the "best" powder charge for our load?

    The rifle used for this test is a Howa 1500 with a trueflite barrel, chambered in .260Rem, 1:8 at 19 inches or so.

    Brass Lapua, powder 2209, primers Fed210GMM, bullet Sierra 142gr SMK.
    Rounds loaded to 2.85" OAL - arbitrarily selected to fit the mag.

    I loaded 3 rounds at each increment from 43.3gr to 44,5gr (book max), then shot at 100 metres from a bipod and rear bag, with some cooling the barrel between shots (to keep to the conventional approach).

    Shooting these gave the following results:

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    All loads met my target velocity window (over 2600fps)

    The usual approach would likely be to select the load at 43.6 grains, as it is the tightest group, and the velocity SD indicated is extremely good.

    However, we know that 3-shot groups are poor indicators of overall precision (see recent threads).

    So I selected 43.6 as the best charge weight indicated - and 44.5 as the WORST charge weight indicated by group size.

    I then loaded 20 of each. These were shot in alternating order, 5 rounds at a time, to minimise shooter fatigue or barrel fouling effects. Rounds were shot at the same range and the same rest as before, with barrel somewhat cooled between groups.

    This gave the below results:

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    43.6gr on the left, 44.5gr on the right.

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    Indicatively, you might still feel that the load at 43.6gr is still slightly "better" as it has a slightly smaller group size. However, group size is not a very good predictive measure as it only takes into account the 2 most distant points in the dataset and ignores all the others - mean radius and the SD of mean radius is a more useful measure - this describes the "average miss distance" and the variability of that average.

    In the case of these 2 loads with 20rd groups, the mean radii are 1.17cm (SD 0.5) and 1.27cm (SD 0.6) respectively.

    This might still lead us to think that the 43.6gr load is slightly better. It is informative to note that across a larger sample size, the SD of the velocity has substantially changed from that recorded with 3 shots - and the SD and ES of velocity are functionally identical between these charge weights.

    Statistically, with data that is distributed normally, we can calculate limits within which we can confident, to any specified level, of our mean value, based on the standard deviation and the sample size. If these confidence intervals for 2 different mean values overlap - there is no statistical difference.

    I have calculated this for these 2 groups for the 95% confidence level and plotted the results - see below.

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    In statistical terms, there is no significant difference between the 2 charge weights. It is helpful at this point to overlay the 2 groups visually.

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    Really, there is no practical visual difference. The measures used have a poor robustness to outliers, and the 44.5gr load shows one minor outlier. I would expect that with a larger sample size, say another 10 - the apparent differences in mean radius and group size would diminish further. 30 is often considered a sensible minimum sample size in statistics, so why 20 round groups here? Practical reasons - components are expensive, and shooting/loading takes time. I may expand this data set further in future.


    Conclusion: I have come closer to demonstrating that the 2 different powder charges produce the same level of precision rather than one being better than the other.

    The implication is that different powder charges may not actually produce different levels of precision in your system. You may be wasting time, effort, energy and components testing in this way - it may be that no matter what powder charge you select, the end result with regards to precision (and velocity consistency) will be identical.

    I suggest a simpler and more efficient approach -

    1. Define your requirements - what level of precision and velocity do you require? This requires sensible calibration of expectations - chasing smaller groups than most rifles can produce, and more speed than your chosen cartridge can generally produce, is perhaps not well-aligned to reality. Book max speed minus 15-50fps per inch for your actual barrel length is perhaps a good indicator of a realistic expectation for speed.
    2. Select the most appopriate powder and bullet based on reasonably wide research, using good quality components
    3. Load 10rd at a powder charge (within book data) that you predict will give the velocity target you'd like. It will be easier to be more precise in this estimate with more modern cartridges with lower variability in data. I suggest using more modern cartridges.
    4. Load your COAL to be seated off the lands somewhere, and fit in your magazine. Forget about it.
    4. Shoot to test
    5. If velocity is in your target range, and precision meets your requirements, you are done.


    If you have realistic expectations, use good components, and use book data wisely you should be done. However,

    6a. If precision does not meet your requirements - try a different powder or bullet
    6b. If velocity does not meet your requirements - if you have no pressure signs or are below book max, adjust powder charge up an amount calculated to meet your target velocty. E.g. .223 seems to increase about 12fps per 0.1gr of 2206H.
    6c. If velocity does not meet your requirements - if you have pressure signs or are at book max - try a different powder
    6d. If velocity and precision meet your requirements but you have pressure signs - reduce your powder charge or try a different powder.

 

 

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