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It's been about 30-years since I've reloaded. I'm planning to start at minimum and work up in 1/2gr increments. A few questions please...
When working up a load do you deliberately foul your barrel (with a factory round) before shooting your first batch?
5-round batches?
Obviously like sighting it I suppose; let the barrel cool between batches?
50 or 100yd groups?
Thank you everyone! :)
Unless every shot is going to be a clean bore shot in the field, you need to know how it will shoot with a fouled bore, so yes.
3-5. 3 if it's a rifle I know shoots well and I'm shooting lots of groups which together will give a bigger picture. Then probably a 5 to confirm.
Let it cool between each shot, especially with lighter barrels. Otherwise if you get a bad group you don't know whether it's because the load's no good or because heat screwed it up.
100. Or further, if the range allows.
Find you best powder load by shooting strings over a chronograph to get the best SD at this stage you don't even need to shoot them on paper. Then shoot groups altering the seating depth to get best accuracy.
Fouling round always good idea.
Do you have a chrony or access to one ? These days I tend to run a ladder first up, starting in sensible (middle) of recommended range (can vary widely depending on source of info) for the powder/pill combo going up in 0.3gn intervals - just one load at each point.
Go up to book max plus a few more above that. Shoot the ladder from low to high and watch VERY CAREFULLY for over pressure signs as you close in on top end. Fire in groups of 3 or 4, allow bbl to cool between. I find this the fastest way & uses least amount of precious components, to establish
a) what's safe load & what speeds that provides
b) a node where you're likely to find low ES & good accuracy.
Then I can narrow in on a accuracy load based on 3x at each load. Then fiddle with jump if needed.
Thanks everyone. It's an old 17.5" barrel 1944 SMLE I'm loading for so want to start low and work up. I have loaded for it before, but it was 30-years ago. With Highland factory 150's it shoots 3" 3-shot groups at 100. That's with a 2.5x scope, so I've put a 3-p Nikon Prostaff on it as my old eyes aren't what they used t be. I may start loading for my 223 and 308 in the future. No chronograph
Your lower charge loads will foul the barrel plenty ahead of the loads at the top end of your bracketed charge weights.
The minimum charge weights likely won’t be of much interest for your final load, just safer to start lower obviously and will also foul the barrel.
Actually; starting at the Lee dipper load; which is a mid load would be a good starting point for the 150gr :) Thanks for the info!
+1 and also try and number each individual shot 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. on the target if possibleQuote:
Originally Posted by chainsaw
Greetings Bumblefoot,
This handloading thing is a broad church. It can be anything you want depending on your aims. If it is the journey you are interested in then the options are endless, far too many to cover in one post. If however it is the destination of decent ammunition to feed your 3 rifles then things are much simpler. Most of us start focused on the destination and grow to enjoy the journey along the way. You have chosen your rifles well. With the .308 and .223 and to a lesser extent the .303 almost any load will give decent accuracy. All three can be loaded with AR2206H if you are able to locate any. I will do a bit of digging and post some suggestions tomorrow.
Regards Grandpamac.
@grandpamac I scored some H4895 a couple of days ago for the 303. I used IMR4895 for it years ago. I have load data for the H4895, and see that many use it for the 308 and 223. I'm just really doing it for a but of fun; mostly focussing on the 303. Wanting to get good consistent (as accurate as possible in the old girl!) for hunting.
I use Buffalo with the 55gr GameKing in the 223 and Sako 150gr Gamehead in the 308. Really pleased with both factory offerings. All of my rifles are for hunting, target doesn't spin my wheels. But I do think that having a lb or 2 of powder and a few boxes of projectiles on hand; with good loads sorted in times of powder/ammunition shortages isn't a silly idea.
Not trying to sound like a crazy prepper though! Just being sensible. I do think shortages are going to continue for some time.... I'd run out of Buffalo 223 and no one here in Taranaki had any so had to get some from Whanganui.
@grandpamac "With the .308 and .223 and to a lesser extent the .303 almost any load will give decent accuracy." I'm a "Keep It Simple Stupid" sorta guy. Just want stuff that gets the job done! Hence the Lee Loader and scales ;)
Nowadays I usually have the semblance of a group in 15-25 rounds.
This is what has worked for me but I'm by no means experienced or advising this is the best way.
I usually use load data and quickload to work out what max is likely going to be around and then use quickload and OBT to work out the charge likely to meet that node.
Then if its not right on pressures edge I usually load 1 or 2 10 round ladders with half above and half below in 1% of total charge weight steps ie 0.4 grains for a 40grain load etc.
If it's close to pressure I usually load stepping down from max past the node load and then end up 10% below max. I only load one ladder for the first session so if I do need to pull loads it's minimised as I won't use pulled projectiles or cases in development (usually use them to foul a clean bore or as sighters) due to the different neck tension created. Sometimes I will load a second ladder to confirm/add extra data points.
I then shoot all loads in each ladder at the same target at 100 or 200 yards depending on what range I can get to and conditions. Recording where each bullet impacts by drawing in on an identical target I have next to me and recording velocity. I also let the barrel cool completely between shots as I want to know cold bore accuracy.
From the chrono I look for charges where velocity doesn't really change with powder change (this is where extra data points of 2 ladders adds security) I note any points and then I look at the target and see if any of these also have shots close to each other if they do line up then usually I use that group. If not which is rare I usually pick the ones with the closest velocity and do a couple 3 round groups at varied charges. This is why weighing charges and brass prerp and seating depths need to be precise so you can be more certain the effects are from the powder charge rather than variance in reloading precision.
Usually I end the 10 round ladder with a far idea of a group and then the next 5 shot confirms that I'm near a node. (this is often a sub moa sub 20fps ES load plenty accurate for hunting if you needed to get out. I then usually start tinkering with seating depth and varying the powder charge a tiny bit to hone in on the best group possible.
Usually I can hunt after 15-25 shots if I need to and usually another 20 I have the load dialled right in. Also once I have a load I usually do a 3 round group in relatively quick succession to see what the load does if I ever needed to use my whole magazine and to give me an idea how serious I need to worry about barrel heat effecting accuracy. Usually even with the kimbers 3 rounds aren't really effected but 4 or 5 round especially if you cook the bullets in the chamber while lining up the next shot they start to open up a bit.
It's also worth noting I vary rarely do a full barrel clean unless I am leaving the rifle in the safe for some time. I usually just use a pull through before and after each hunt and leave it "fouled" it's looks shiny and mint even on my main hunting rifle that's easily got 1000 rounds through it now (although I'd be interested to borescope it). Do usually do a full clean probably every 200 rounds when I'm using factory ammo or I do it every 100 rounds when I reprep my 100 pieces of brass and recheck load development hasn't changed.
This is all targetted at modern rifles so not sure if its helpful but figured I'd post it incase it helps someone.
Well I've just been reading up about ladder testing. Never heard of it before!
what mimms means...and it is VERY relevant....if using ONLY factory loads...you have two choices 150s or 180s....most rifles will like one over the other by big margin.
so if the 150s dont do any good...find something heavy and try it BEFORE fluffing around with 150s trying to get better group....
I was in hurry day I posted your spoon volume...I know there are two hogdgon powders that are the same as AR 2213SC and AR2206H......pretty sure you have the 2206 equivilent...BUT WITHOUT CHECKING CHART arent 100% sure.
I bought a box of 180 factory rounds to have a play with as I've only shot 150s in it for a long time. When I was shooting 174gr RN it was a minimum load as a bail gun, so was hardly ever used
Going to be honest you just seem like a plain c@*t. But you literally posted something that is not useful in any world bitching about his post being useless. Its pretty simple all he's adding is that they tend to have a preference for a weight class which I dont often find true in modern cartridges. Just means check a range of weights before going down the rabbit hole.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheekiBreeki
Calm the farm please! :)
Greetings Bumblefoot,
Having read through this thread and revisited your earlier one I suspect your head may be spinning. Hopefully, without adding any more confusion, here is my take on loads and loading the .303 with a Lee Loader.
Case Prep.
Sort out a batch of your empties with the same head stamp and decap them and give them a good clean. A rub with a Scotchbrite to any grubby area and a buff up with a Chux is all you need. Next try them in your rifle chamber to ensure the bolt closes without too much effort. If it doesn't you will need to find someone with a press and a .303 FL die to size them just enough to chamber. Trim them with your Lee trimmer and chamfer inside and out, especially on the inside. This helps with seating the projectile. If the primer has been crimped in place you will need to remove the crimp with a small knife. Now you are ready to size.
Sizing and Capping.
Follow the directions that came with your Lee kit and go easy seating the primer.
Loads.
With the 150 grain projectile I would suggest 36 grains of H4895 which is the start load listed By Hodgdon. I have loaded 34 grains of AR2206H, which is exactly the same powder as H4895, which shot very well in my .303. 36 grains should produce about 2,200 fps in your rifle. I would fire some of these loads to check for accuracy and that the fired cases chambered freely. You may also note that the primer has backed out a little. This is good. You may wish to stop at this point but if not you could try 37 and 38 grains of H4895. I wouldn't bother working up in small increments as the aim is to find a load that allow the cases to be reloaded using the Lee Loader and give acceptable accuracy. I used 38 grains of AR2206H behind the 150 grain projectile in my .308 as a soft target load. These were only neck sized and never needed FL sizing. In fact a tight case fired with this load chambered freely thereafter.
In summary I suspect that somewhere between 36 and 38 grains of H4895 you will find a happy spot that gives acceptable accuracy and velocity plus allowing the cases to be reloaded in the Lee Loader repeatedly.
Regards Grandpamac.
@grandpamac Thank you so much. I've got a heap of Highland/PPU brass that has been shot through this rifle. Funny; like a dork I bought a set of full length dies by mistake! I saw the dipper in the ad and automatically thought it was a Lee Loader without reading the ad properly... Dumb-arse moment.... However; the dies have the new 2.8g spoon and charge page which is helpful. I am still thinking about getting a press so will keep the dies in case I have to do the occasional FL re-size. If not; I'll sell them. Here's the new charge sheet
Attachment 178792
Greetings Bumblefoot,Quote:
Originally Posted by bumblefoot
I would definitely hang on to those FL dies. With them you only need to find someone with a press. FL sizing for a .303 takes some care. You only want to size the case just enough to chamber and no more. I start with the die a couple of turns away form the shell holder and turn the die down about 1/8 of a turn at a time until the case just chambers and no more. This is the key to decent case life with the .303. I was without a .303 in my cupboard for almost 40 years but still kept my dies. You just never know when you might need them.
Regards Grandpamac.
You also could have just pointed out that useful info you just added and said that. I would have learned something.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheekiBreeki
Its pretty simple to say I disagree and its possible to agree with someone on 1 thing and disagree on another. For example I have never found a rifle that shows any serious preference for an particular bullet weight unless it cant stabilize it. I personally think its usually how lucky you get with you starting seating depth. I may be wrong however and have got lucky but I've run 155s to 225s in the same 308 and 120s to 180s in 7mm08'and all would shoot similar groups once i got to playing with seating depth. So i kind of disagree with/am skeptical off those saying they have a strong preference but i dont go attack them as i dont know I just haven't found it to be true.
Regardless both of you seem to be at each others throats after reading your recent histories. How about keeping your squabbles to the threads they started in and try be civil in any others you happen to see each other or even better block each other as i cant see a mutual understanding happening.
This is great info and just what I was going to post when I saw you fretting about having brought full length dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpamac
@grandpamac Yup; I'd probably just get a Lee Anniversary kit or similar. I just like basic stuff that gets the job done :) Plus; I'm really ony reloading for the fun and would never go through a heap of rounds because I'm not into target shooting etc.
