Thread: .222 .223 .222mag .5.56.. THE CALIBRE OF CHOICE FOR MANY HUNTERS

Attachment 27482

In the professional field of hunting.
Bullet placement is of course the essence with these calibres as IS TRUE with every other calibre. An animal can only be so dead and a gut shot or leg shot is the same by any other calibre. Place any of these bullets above, forward of the last rib into the engine room of a deer and its yours. Remember one thing though, its not where the bullet hits an animal it is the path through the animal that counts.

Bush bucking capabilities of these rounds is not great but neither is the bush bucking capabilities of any high powered rifle. If you don't believe this then try firing a magazine of tracer 308 3006 303 on automatic into a forest at night you end up with a Catherine Wheel Effect of spinning bullet fragments that will come half way back to meet you.

In the NZFS in the sixty and seventies you could use whatever calibre you wanted but you were only supplied with 2 .270 and 3 .222 rounds per kill. Among the hunters I worked with and knew, the vast majority used the deadly little Sako Vixen .222. Second most popular calibre was the 243, the boys using this calibre, would trade the 270 rounds at the local sports store for powder and projectiles.

I can only ever remember losing about one deer a month using the .222 and I wouldnt mind a dollar for every hour I have spent on my hands and knees blood trailing deer shot with other calibres 303's, 308's, 3006's and in particular 270's. The NZFS at this time had CAC producing a 270 rounds stamped on the base NZFS, using a 130 gr bullet that was spectacularly ineffective. When I started as a shooter I replaced a guy who had an accident and he was on 35th one shot kill so far that month using a .222.

My current and preferred deer rifle to this day is a Sako Vixen that began its life as a .222 and was re-barreled for .222 mag. This is a great cartridge and I used it until I started aerial shooting using an ar15 that I eventually brought. I then had the vixen re barrelled in .223 to use the same ammo. I have used a lot of 5.56x45 FMJ on deer with outstanding success. In the aerial shooting game many firms started there shooter of with the sig 308's but most gravitated quickly to the .223 an ar15, Ruger, HnK.

Big deer, little deer, Red, Sambar, sika, fallow, wapiti, thar and chammy, never mind, they have all fallen in their thousands to the deadly family of cartridges above. So if you are sharing a hut with another bunch of hunters and there is an old bugger there with a well used Sako .222 keep your eye on him because he is probably a big tallyman in a previous life and he will clean out the valley.

The Contract shooters of this day that I am in touch with all use .223. for goat control and deer control.
As professionals shooters like us, they pride themselve's on having the best tools for the job.

On the subject of range. I shoot with people who have found the lure of the long range calibre irresistible. They say we can shoot deer at 800 metres. I say I cant see the point in that as I have still got to wander over and carry the meat back or take its tail, so I would rather wander within 300 metres and put a neat hole through its ribs. A neat little hole that spoils no meat and I can block with a plug of moss dipped in pepper or flyspray to stop the flies from blowing the bullet wound.

Keep going I was getting into that

+1 Excellent scribe.......love learning new stuff all the time on our brilliant forum.....

I already sold my AR. It's underpowered. I'm going to 76mm Shoulder fired. It's so ethical that i'm actually helping children in Gaza when I shoot a deer with it.

A couple of my old kill sheets turned up in a cleanout of the Old Forestry Base. I would have used less than half of my allotted 3 .222 rounds per animal as we all finished the season with hundreds of rounds up our sleeve. These and what DOC has supplied me over the years have kept me pretty with rounds for all the meat hunting I do. I have reloaded for all the varieties of trebbly's above except the .222. I like using a long barrel for max speed and accuracy and 55gr hornady projectiles. I have gone away from the heavier projectiles as I think the above rounds are in better balance with the fast 55grainers.

Eugene Stoner was the man???. Experimented with the .222 and upgraded it. Designed the 5.56x45 around the requirement that it must penetrate the standard steal helmet a 500yds. So penetrating the shoulder of a large stag is not a big ask.

Stable in flight but becomes unstable in contact with flesh. Delivers Hydrostatic shock to an unquantifiable degree.

Originally Posted by Scribe

Attachment 27484

A couple of my old kill sheets turned up in a cleanout of the Old Forestry Base. I would have used less than half of my allotted 3 .222 rounds per animal as we all finished the season with hundreds of rounds up our sleeve. These and what DOC has supplied me over the years have kept me pretty with rounds for all the meat hunting I do. I have reloaded for all the varieties of trebbly's above except the .222. I like using a long barrel for max speed and accuracy and 55gr hornady projectiles. I have gone away from the heavier projectiles as I think the above rounds are in better balance with the fast 55grainers.

Eugene Stoner was the man???. Experimented with the .222 and upgraded it. Designed the 5.56x45 around the requirement that it must penetrate the standard steal helmet a 500yds. So penetrating the shoulder of a large stag is not a big ask.

Stable in flight but becomes unstable in contact with flesh. Delivers Hydrostatic shock to an unquantifiable degree.

Impressive! Legend!
Thank you for share.

[QUOTE=Scribe;276070]Attachment 27484

If you look at the top left hand corner of the Token Destruction Form there is an example of the worst type of bureaucracy.

I was paid 7 dollars for every deer I shot up to a maximum of $80 dollars per week. The $80 dollar a week target was set so that the Base Stallions were not embarrassed by the fact we could earn a hell of a lot more than them.

So once you had shot your 45 for the month you had achieved maximum but you could credit extra tails to your next months tally.
So thanks to the system, once I had a few tails up I would have from the 1st of the month until tail destruction day (28th) to explore far distant country. I once found myself 80 miles as the crow flies from base and 2 days to get home.

And so a poacher was born, an honourable occupation it is too, ridding the country of noxious animals. How can there be any crime in that. The grass is always greener over the other side of the hill as we know and the best hunters always seemed to me to be the most adventurous. To lie near my little fire up on the main range near the 'Sawtooth' gazing down on the cities of Napier and Hastings and wondering what everybody was up to was a regular occurrence.

Unfortunately the dear old deer in this day and age are shown far less respect than in our day. It is now fashionable in the name of Conservation to drop 1080 poison into our mountains and forests to target our deer. Have no doubt about this, it estimated
that between 20,000 and 50,000 deer are killed annually in this most inhumane fashion. This so called conservation has in the process pretty well destroyed the Wild Venison Recovery Industry with its dangerous aerial distribution of a residual poison that at many levels has penetrated the human food chain. This Wild Venison Recovery Industry was well able to keep the deer numbers in check as well as providing a secondary income for many hunters and it was worth around 200 mil a year the country.

After 60 year of 1080 use in NZ, if it was any good we would all know how good it was and we wouldn't have to create beech mast crisis and rat plagues to try to justify its use.

After

This was what destroyed the Wild Venison Recovery Industry. After all the work, the treasure we poured into this industry and the lives we lost.

Off these two shipments, one was returned from Germany and tested back in NZ for 1080 residue on a rumour that a helicopter was seen shooting deer in a 1080 area.

The second shipment had arrived in America and it was either disposed of there or dumped at sea because it never returned to NZ nor was it tested for 1080 residue. By these method we can keep up the pretence that 1080 has never been found in our food products.

It is obvious that there is a different mindset here, between protecting our reputation overseas and protecting the New Zealand hunter or his family from the effects of 1080.

The return or destruction of these two shipments cost Individuals dearly, not just monetary but in loss of trust and loss of contracts and the industry has never recovered.

Scribe, I have read that the .222 FMJ would tumble dramatically as it cut it's path through a deer. Did you find this to be the case? This would perhaps explain one of the reasons why it kills better than would be expected.
In the right hands with good bullet construction and shot placement, taking deer with a .22 centrefire is not a problem at sensible ranges. Get these factors wrong and things can go pretty ugly!

Originally Posted by Matt2308

Scribe, I have read that the .222 FMJ would tumble dramatically as it cut it's path through a deer. Did you find this to be the case? This would perhaps explain one of the reasons why it kills better than would be expected.
In the right hands with good bullet construction and shot placement, taking deer with a .22 centrefire is not a problem at sensible ranges. Get these factors wrong and things can go pretty ugly!

Hi Matt, I havnt had experience with .222 FMJ. But I have had a fair bit with 5.56 FMJ. First in Vietnam, I never carried the Armalite, I carried the M60. But I did closely examine some of the wounds made by this evil little bullet and said 'Lord if I am Going to be hit with anything let it not be with one of these little bastards". The entry would be a small innocuous looking pinhole with a 4 inch circle of blue destroyed flesh caused by the hydro static shock. If the projectile had hit bone the exit had to be seen to be believed. A bullet that passed through and arm would blacken the flesh from nearly the elbow to the shoulder.

This projectile was barely stable in flight but being pointed and boat tailed it had little surface area to keep it stable in flesh. The m16 and its attendant ammo 'I think' came very close breaching the Geneva Convention I can remember quite a fuss about it at the time.

I liked using the FMJ from the air on deer targeting the head neck and spine.

I even got a bit cocky in an ammunition crisis and started using the 5.56 in my .222 mag though the chamber was a little long. The experts warned against it and they were right. I blew the extractor out of the Vixen and got a snout full of hot particles it was a cheap lesson I suppose.

The 45gr were effective because they were hard and they were really travelling. Some loads were reputed to be up around the 3500 fps.

I do believe that the whole trebbly family has a killing power way beyond what you would expect from its statistics. I still watch with amazement as a stag hit through the shoulder can just buckle and hit the ground. Or I pull the engine out of a deer and find splits in the deers liver from the projectile passing through 18 inches away and the rest of the organs bruised and torn from the hydrolic effect of the fast expanding bullet and I say fuuuucccckkk.

Originally Posted by Scribe

Hi Matt, I havnt had experience with .222 FMJ. But I have had a fair bit with 5.56 FMJ. First in Vietnam, I never carried the Armalite, I carried the M60. But I did closely examine some of the wounds made by this evil little bullet and said 'Lord if I am Going to be hit with anything let it not be with one of these little bastards". The entry would be a small innocuous looking pinhole with a 4 inch circle of blue destroyed flesh caused by the hydro static shock. If the projectile had hit bone the exit had to be seen to be believed. A bullet that passed through and arm would blacken the flesh from nearly the elbow to the shoulder.

This projectile was barely stable in flight but being pointed and boat tailed it had little surface area to keep it stable in flesh. The m16 and its attendant ammo 'I think' came very close breaching the Geneva Convention I can remember quite a fuss about it at the time.

I liked using the FMJ from the air on deer targeting the head neck and spine.

I even got a bit cocky in an ammunition crisis and started using the 5.56 in my .222 mag though the chamber was a little long. The experts warned against it and they were right. I blew the extractor out of the Vixen and got a snout full of hot particles it was a cheap lesson I suppose.

The 45gr were effective because they were hard and they were really travelling. Some loads were reputed to be up around the 3500 fps.

I do believe that the whole trebbly family has a killing power way beyond what you would expect from its statistics. I still watch with amazement as a stag hit through the shoulder can just buckle and hit the ground. Or I pull the engine out of a deer and find splits in the deers liver from the projectile passing through 18 inches away and the rest of the organs bruised and torn from the hydrolic effect of the fast expanding bullet and I say fuuuucccckkk.

Hardie said when you were in Nam you were too scared to leave camp and he had to do all your shooting for you.Hardie also said you thought the Viet Cong were descended from the ghosts of Aorangi.

Originally Posted by TeRei

Hardie said when you were in Nam you were too scared to leave camp and he had to do all your shooting for you.Hardie also said you thought the Viet Cong were descended from the ghosts of Aorangi.

How would Hardie know what I was doing Te Rei. He was suffering MPI ( Mental Paralysis of the Insane) from a long untreated attack of syphilis.

My only problem with .223 on deer (I have shot deer with .223 for the record) is that people often consider all ammo the same-I have seen a mate shoot a deer with a round that was made for varmints (he thought that as it was a "hunting" round it was ok) and the image has stuck with me,I also shot the deer and it went down(7mm08) and seeing the crater my mate caused,in the right place for the record, was horrific.
Can a 22 cal projectile do the job?
Hell yes!
Is it what I would recommend to a new hunter?
Hell no!
I have also killed game with arrows and bolts, perfectly capable in the right hands but also not what I would recommend to a new hunter.

This debate has played out over a few threads, and I am concerned that to someone only reading one of the threads that the message may be lost.
We are in a world where most people new to a activity google it, so even if they do not engage in a forum,the info from any thread could/can highly influence them as they get started. As most new hunters do not have the upbringing and guidance that a lot of us have had.

Originally Posted by res

My only problem with .223 on deer (I have shot deer with .223 for the record) is that people often consider all ammo the same-I have seen a mate shoot a deer with a round that was made for varmints (he thought that as it was a "hunting" round it was ok) and the image has stuck with me,I also shot the deer and it went down(7mm08) and seeing the crater my mate caused,in the right place for the record, was horrific.
Can a 22 cal projectile do the job?
Hell yes!
Is it what I would recommend to a new hunter?
Hell no!
I have also killed game with arrows and bolts, perfectly capable in the right hands but also not what I would recommend to a new hunter.

This debate has played out over a few threads, and I am concerned that to someone only reading one of the threads that the message may be lost.
We are in a world where most people new to a activity google it, so even if they do not engage in a forum,the info from any thread could/can highly influence them as they get started. As most new hunters do not have the upbringing and guidance that a lot of us have had.

Hi res, Perhaps its time someone put a picture of a deer up here with the bullet strike area for a killing shot marked in red. We then would find that the target area is identical for a Trebble two as it is for any of the other reputed deer rifles. There are after all no degrees of dead.

Unfortunately it would not show the angles of the bullets travel through the deer which is so important.

I like to encourage woman and boys to use the Trebbly family. One.. it does away with the flinch.. Two it handles like a .22 off the shoulder. Three.. Ammo is cheap and they get plenty of practice on rabbits, hares, wallabies.

Quite quickly they learn to select the part of the animal they want to hit rather than aiming at the whole animal as some do with the larger calibres. This is a bit of a generalization.

With practise you can ride the bullet all the way to the target and see the hair flick as the bullet hits. The moment you know where the bullet hits you know what the animal is going to do next.

Neck.. down, thump.
Shoulder...stumble, wheel down hill, fall dead.
Heart...Mad dash, will go up to one hundred yds and die in mid flight.
Lungs...Stand, walk backwards, stumble, crash, head swinging, dead .
Liver...Stand, ears droop, walk 30 yards, lie down, die quietly.

Heart... is a shot to be avoided. I find deer in the bush that have died and the shooter has not been aware he has even hit the animal. As the heart shot animal flees look for ears held at an unusual angle.

Lung shoot.. The leader of two deer and you will get to shoot the other as it will hold as long as the other stays on its feet.

Liver shoot.. The leader of a mob of five and He/She will move quietly at a walk and lie down and die quietly and you will get the lot. This shot is used a lot on velvety stags on steep faces so they don't crash down and destroy there velvet.

Ethics aside, I bet many trebbly users are still using these shots today. I do. Remember these shots apply generally to all calibre's but particularly to the Trebblys.

Originally Posted by Scribe

Hi res, Perhaps its time someone put a picture of a deer up here with the bullet strike area for a killing shot marked in red. We then would find that the target area is identical for a Trebble two as it is for any of the other reputed deer rifles. There are after all no degrees of dead.

Unfortunately it would not show the angles of the bullets travel through the deer which is so important.

I like to encourage woman and boys to use the Trebbly family. One.. it does away with the flinch.. Two it handles like a .22 off the shoulder. Three.. Ammo is cheap and they get plenty of practice on rabbits, hares, wallabies.

Quite quickly they learn to select the part of the animal they want to hit rather than aiming at the whole animal as some do with the larger calibres. This is a bit of a generalization.

With practise you can ride the bullet all the way to the target and see the hair flick as the bullet hits. The moment you know where the bullet hits you know what the animal is going to do next.

Neck.. down, thump.
Shoulder...stumble, wheel down hill, fall dead.
Heart...Mad dash, will go up to one hundred yds and die in mid flight.
Lungs...Stand, walk backwards, stumble, crash, head swinging, dead .
Liver...Stand, ears droop, walk 30 yards, lie down, die quietly.

Heart... is a shot to be avoided. I find deer in the bush that have died and the shooter has not been aware he has even hit the animal. As the heart shot animal flees look for ears held at an unusual angle.

Lung shoot.. The leader of two deer and you will get to shoot the other as it will hold as long as the other stays on its feet.

Liver shoot.. The leader of a mob of five and He/She will move quietly at a walk and lie down and die quietly and you will get the lot. This shot is used a lot on velvety stags on steep faces so they don't crash down and destroy there velvet.

Ethics aside, I bet many trebbly users are still using these shots today. I do. Remember these shots apply generally to all calibre's but particularly to the Trebblys.

Brilliant again mate, just upped my hunting knowledge big time.......big thanks