.223 bullet deflection from twigs and branches

I'm trying to clear the pests out of what was once my bush paddock but is rapidly becoming an empty paddock with some tall trees. Stapling up feratox bags for the possums this afternoon, I saw 5 reds walking slowly past me on the ridgeline above about 30m away. I had the .223 scope on them very quickly but they did not drop below the skyline so no shot possibility. They didn't appear to have seen me, so once they had moved past I followed. There they were sitting in a sunny spot about 100m away. Once again I lined them up in the scope but there were heaps of dead twigs and small branches between us. It didn't look too bad by eye but through the scope the twigs were so dense the target was harder to see. Needless to say I did not attempt a shot. There was no way to get much closer without the wind giving me away, so decided to leave them to it for now.

This is the first .223 I've ever owned and I have limited experience with the round. I'm assuming any impact with any obstacle on the way to the target will deflect the projectile to some degree. Has anyone quantified this? Obviously a clear shot is the ideal, but what are the real world implications of a near-clear shot, or a partly obscured shot? I do recall reading an article about Aussie soldiers in VietNam much preferring the SLR due to the .308 having much greater ability to push through vegetation that knocked the 5.56 totally off, and even saw the same thing happening with the SKS and AK rounds coming at them. Reading that was one of the main reasons I got a 7.62x39 E cat rifle rather than 5.56 back in the "good old days".

How many of you .223 shooters take totally clear shots only, and how many are prepared to risk hitting some vegetation on the way to the target?

Always go for a clear shot, even with heavier calibers, doesn't take much to create a deflection.

Same rules for each calibre - if it aint clear or you aint confident, then dont squeeze that trigger! They will all deflect, some worse than others.And it depends on whether the sticks and twigs etc are only a few metres in front of the animal or closer to mid range. The 223 is perfectly adequate for what you want, so long as you do your job.

A little grass doesn't worry me or a few leaves but twigs etc I avoid. Cleaning out the last of the goats hopefully, I've shifted to the 7,62x39 as I'm having to shoot through bush margins more and more.
Even during the day a thermal is useful for finding them tucked away. I could of course let them eat out all the understood which would simplify things but would be a bit counter-productive.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

A little grass doesn't worry me or a few leaves but twigs etc I avoid. Cleaning out the last of the goats hopefully, I've shifted to the 7,62x39 as I'm having to shoot through bush margins more and more.
Even during the day a thermal is useful for finding them tucked away. I could of course let them eat out all the understood which would simplify things but would be a bit counter-productive.

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Sounds like we're talking the same language, I've tended to avoid any sticks etc but looking at these 5 this afternoon made me question my habits. As you say, protecting the bush is the goal.

This guys experiment was interesting, the .223 was closer than I expected it to be;
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...e-box-o-truth/

@Arthur McBride I would have thought .303 at 20 yards would have taken a decent sized stick to deflect it that much! I wonder if that was a fluke? I suspect it depends on where it is hit, a smaller sized stick hit square on with .303 should just dinintegrate, but if you hit it on the edge the projectile could be deflected significantly. Either way, the last thing any of us want is injured animals in pain.

It's a pain in the neck in my situation, with a lot of senescent branches still hanging low under the area I had intended to let the bush spread in to. IN a few more years these senescent branches should have fallen off, and as the regenerating bush is largely browsed low the visibility will increase a lot., unless I get the feral deer all converted to venison in the freezer.

There's an old doco on YT called deadly weapons, firearms and firepower. Towards the end of part 3 here he does some brush testing and everything fairs pretty similarly.

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Originally Posted by Arthur McBride

IT doesn't matter whether its a .223 or a something else, same story. In the last couple of years I have lost two red deer to sticks in between me and the deer ............. a .222 and the other was a .303..........!

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Interesting. I have read a few statements that a heavier, slower moving projectile such as a 303 would be deflected less at say, 2450 fps than a faster lighter 223 at 34000+ fps by twigs / leaves / grass. Branches, well they ain't a "twig"and I would expect problems.
Presumably it was the 303 with open sights?

Sticks very close to deer ok.
Sticks very close to shooter not ok.

Two years ago I took a shot at a red stag (he was with a bunch of hinds) in a small bush covered basin. I was on a ridge one side, he was below a slightly higher ridge on the other but at the same elevation I was. Range was about 80m and I was using a 7mm08 handloads with 120gr Sierra Sp's ( 3 shots touching at 100). Shot was taken using a solid log rest and my hold was on the neck. At the shot, the Stag bolted.........I managed to knock down one of the hinds as it followed the stag. I couldnt believe that I had missed what was essentially a 'chip' shot. My hunting mate who was about 20m to my left when I fired, saw the projectile clip a rotten twig poking out of the bush about 15m in front of me ( it wasnt visible in the scope on 8 power)
Fast forward 12 mths and I shot a stag in the same place. When we dressed it out it had bullet damage to its rear leg joint which had healed. We are both confident it was the same stag.......

The twig hit was about the diameter of a pencil in size....but it deflected the projectile about a metre.

There's also a slow mo guys video where a D20 artillery gun gets significantly deflected by a watermelon.

Using 180 grain CAC ammo (it was a long time ago!) I dropped a red spikey one rainy day.

The bullet travelled about 15 yards, hit a young beech tree of about 4” diameter right in the middle and sailed on through, it took out a rib on one side of the spikey and two ribs on the far side before stopping under the skin.

The spikey was about 5 yards on the far side of the beech tree (which I failed to notice due to my 2.75 scope being very waterlogged.)

there has been heaps of experiments on this...will see if can find and link one of them.

Shot a big Sika stag many moons ago. He and some girls were 100m away on the other side of some manuka. I saw him rubbing up against the manuka, so knew the projo was only going to have to fight through 1-2m of manuka sticks, so launched a 150gn Sierra gameking. Stag ran a few meters and dropped. Got over there and saw Manuka was only 1m thick, and no big branches. Upon dressing him out I found that the projo was already completely sideways as it went through the near side skin, just behind the front leg.

Air is the only thing that doesn't deflect projectiles, and even then that can be a stretch sometimes!!

I have had a 30-30 deflected by a punga frond stem.
I have also had a 30-30 punch through a tree trunk and kill a deer.

https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Res...ead/22726.html


https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Res...ead/21078.html



https://www.ballisticstudies.com/Res...ead/21724.html


fair bit to wade through AND NOT DONE BY Nathan........ interesting results ,will answer your question Ben.....and then some

One neat thing about the .223 is that they are so accurate and easy to shoot you can thread your shots through (or rather around) sticks and shit and avoid hitting them. All I need to see is a bit of the kill zone and I can mostly get a shot into them.

Like in these pics. And in thicker scrub too.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

12ga solid slug? One of those things that is kind of largely immune to small stuff that causes deflection with smaller rounds, you do get a bit of movement but really you have to be getting something in the 'firewood' size to really knock it off course.

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I USED TO think that...then tried it,and they bounce WORSE than 30/06...infact Ive had one bouce all around wool shed and nearly got my leg after passing through head of big ram and bouncing around the walls...

Thats some mean deflection from a D20 (152mm dia) projectile, off a watermelon. Skip to 15min25 if you don't want to watch 16 minutes of fun shit:D

After watching that I think you may reassess just how un deflectable a 12 guage slug is:wtfsmilie:

Amazing the yaw induced on that 76mm projectile just after leaving the barrel! HD slo mo certainly gives you an insight into some neat stuff.

Tahr's pixs crack me up, as a bush bashing sika hunter im used to dealing with obstructions of the woody type and envied the open country hunters but now i see the problem is transferable.
Most testing on the subject conclude that every bullet can get deflected, big and small.
The best outcome normally comes from not hitting wood before an animal and the second best i find is to have enough bullet weight and energy to still get the job done.
Take this as my opinion only, im not looking for a fight

IV8888 did a video on this. Their results suggest that heavy, slow moving flat noses like 30/30 and 45/70 punch through that stuff way better. The aussies in Vietnam were said to have generally preferred the L1A1 over the new M16 because of the heavier cartridge for this reason, although it’s still a high velocity spitzer the 7.62 was obviously heavier than the .556, so able to handle the jungle better.
The major downside of the L1A1 was the weight and semi-auto only which led to some interesting field modifications by the SAS, but that’s a topic for another thread perhaps…

https://youtu.be/P5dve7vAY9I

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...17d60ecdde.jpg
The “bitch”

Same rule for any calibre. I've had my .308 deflect on small twigs at close range, like 10m away!

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Originally Posted by hamish9701

IV8888 did a video on this. Their results suggest that heavy, slow moving flat noses like 30/30 and 45/70 punch through that stuff way better. The aussies in Vietnam were said to have generally preferred the L1A1 over the new M16 because of the heavier cartridge for this reason, although it’s still a high velocity spitzer the 7.62 was obviously heavier than the .556, so able to handle the jungle better.
The major downside of the L1A1 was the weight and semi-auto only which led to some interesting field modifications by the SAS, but that’s a topic for another thread perhaps…

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My old man used to work with a guy that was in Vietnam. He swore by the SLR, said they preferred them over the M16 for penetration power in the jungle (also dropping power). I always wonder if he was legit, this reminded me to look him up and sure enough he's listed as being there in 67 and 70.

He was a big guy too, I remember he scared the shit out of my old man once. They were salmon fishing the mouth of the Rangitata, he hooked up but lost his footing on the gravel and went in. This was the early 80's, back then a fisherman going into the mouth usually resulted in the search for a body. My old man was sure he was going to have tell his missus (then pregnant) he'd drowned. Not this guy, he walked out on the other side of the mouth.

Funny thing, this was 40ish years ago but I still remember it clearly. I think I used to be in such awe of him I hung on every word.

Tried to shoot deer couple times now with Manuka in the way with 7mm08 both times a fail..... clear shot is a must...