Thread: 223 on deer

When a little calibre does enough, I'd consider it irrelevant though

Originally Posted by Sidetrack

Just back from 14 days on Stewart Island and after shooting a yearling buck with the wee Tikka 223, I have to say that the experience was less than satisfactory. Shot placement was the issue and that is on me. Walked in on it and a doe in waist high crown fern so only option was a frontal shot close in. Bullet (55gn) hit dead centre, travelling full length without hitting anything vital before exploding in the back wheels, decimating both hips joints. Wasn’t going anywhere so quietly finished off with a knife.
Not saying I’m done with the 223 but I think this has just reinforced that time and shot placement is more critical with the light weights, for me anyway. I think a caliber with a bit more mass like the 270, which I’m used to, would have gutted, skinned, and hung up the carcass with that shot.
I don’t want to make excuses, it is what it is and on the odd occasion you can’t allow for all the variables, it’s just that it created doubts and as we all know, doubt creates lack of confidence and that is the road to shooting hell.

The positive is that I’ve been mulling over a more purpose built bush gun for the past year, light, compact, slightly heavier caliber, but will still comfortably wack ‘em over out to 150-200yrds. Will progress that.

@Sidetrack funnily enough @Moa Hunter and I were discussing my shot on the deer we got the other day while having a breather on the way down the hill on the carry out
He suggested much the same thing as you just did but I think he was referring to a bigger calibre on red deer.
In that central area of the chest, things are split to the sides and if you are dead in the middle and miss the heart it is basically a gut shot from the front unless you have something big enough to wreck any of the back boney bits, which actually yours did
he reckoned it was worth aiming a little bit higher into the base of the neck I think.
I had the same thing with a hind years ago with the 243 as a young fella. Not a hard shot, little over maybe, but not good enough to shoot at anything more than big bits.
On a slight slope facing away and could see the whole backbone
Reasoned with myself that if I aim right at the spine about half way along the back it would work mint, should cover all bases with all that stuff in the front to hit. yeah nah.
Dropped like a stone but got up again. Did get the deer but the autopsy basically suggested that I had just missed the spine (hence it dropping but also getting up and buggering off) but it had also missed pretty much everything else. Little bit closer to one side and it would've been dead on the spot

Originally Posted by csmiffy

In that central area of the chest, things are split to the sides and if you are dead in the middle and miss the heart it is basically a gut shot from the front unless you have something big enough to wreck any of the back boney bits

I'd like to see an entirely un-injured set of lungs, heart, aorta, spine out of a deer that has been shot thus, to demonstrate that it's possible. I've got a high degree of scepticism that it is possible however happy to be convinced otherwise by concrete proof. I can provide as many damaged sets of vital organs from deer shot this way as you'd like. The chest cavity is packed pretty full and while you might not inflict immediately lethal damage, it is likely impossible to put a bullet actually through it without hitting something important.

The evidence would suggest generally that tales of deer magically shot in the chest cavity subsequently running away unharmed probably weren't actually shot in the chest cavity. probably due to bad shot placement with an excessively recoiling calibre in their rifle!

For what its worth.

I was farm hunting with a cobber trying to get him his first deer. We happened on 3 deer out in the paddock at 140M. A big framed spiker was facing us so I got him lined up on it. He took the shot with it just slightly less than square on. The sound of a hit was very clear, "that's not going far with a 308 bullet in it" was my thinking. Well bugger me it kept coming forward, head up and not looking the least bit crook. It turned slightly sideways so I smacked it in the shoulder to make sure it didn't get away.

I gutted it, and the damage to the lungs from my shot was clear, no sign at all of the 308 hit. I figured maybe he'd missed after all.

When we were breaking it down my cobber found his 308 bullet in the hip.

The 308 bullet had gone the whole length of the deer with bugger all damage, certainly none to any organs or even the stomach/intestines.

So funny things can and do happen.

Originally Posted by Tentman

For what its worth.

I was farm hunting with a cobber trying to get him his first deer. We happened on 3 deer out in the paddock at 140M. A big framed spiker was facing us so I got him lined up on it. He took the shot with it just slightly less than square on. The sound of a hit was very clear, "that's not going far with a 308 bullet in it" was my thinking. Well bugger me it kept coming forward, head up and not looking the least bit crook. It turned slightly sideways so I smacked it in the shoulder to make sure it didn't get away.

I gutted it, and the damage to the lungs from my shot was clear, no sign at all of the 308 hit. I figured maybe he'd missed after all.

When we were breaking it down my cobber found his 308 bullet in the hip.

The 308 bullet had gone the whole length of the deer with bugger all damage, certainly none to any organs or even the stomach/intestines.

So funny things can and do happen.

What was the path of the bullet through the body?

If you apply occams razor to the 2 possible scenarios:

1: A .308 round travelled the entire length of a deers body doing no harm to the various extremely soft internal organs in it's path until it hit a bony bit
2: An inexperienced shooter shot at a deer angled towards him and hit it directly in the hip with a poorly placed shot


#2 seems much more likely and unless you could trace the path of the bullet through the body to demonstrate it's #1 it would not seem likely

I should have mentioned that I did find the bullet entry point, went in highish where the shoulder meets the neck. It is pretty peculiar because the 150gn projectile did expand normally.

Originally Posted by Tahr

You certainly have to hit them in the right place. Regardless of caliber. But you do get a margin of error with the heavier .223 bullets.

Here's an example from a couple of days ago. Head shot with an 80 grain Targex at about 100 yards (in a torch on the way home), but someone had had a shot at it previously. Probably Mickey D or Lauries Hut with their 270 or 308

Attachment 211327

Attachment 211328

I shot this earlier the same day in the trees at about 80 yards. Hit a bit far back with the 80grn and green stuff on the exit, but it still dropped within 10 yards.

Attachment 211329

man My .270 projectiles MUST be powerful to have gone all the way up to north island from down here...so yeah maybe I was stretching barrel a bit and slighly over compensated for the wind factor over cook straight....

Originally Posted by Tahr

You certainly have to hit them in the right place. Regardless of caliber. But you do get a margin of error with the heavier .223 bullets.

Here's an example from a couple of days ago. Head shot with an 80 grain Targex at about 100 yards (in a torch on the way home), but someone had had a shot at it previously. Probably Mickey D or Lauries Hut with their 270 or 308

Attachment 211327

Attachment 211328

I shot this earlier the same day in the trees at about 80 yards. Hit a bit far back with the 80grn and green stuff on the exit, but it still dropped within 10 yards.

Attachment 211329

Hey Tahr. What is your recipe please?

OMG, tikka yes. 223 probably no for a beginner. The most important things you should have gleamed from this thread are. Most of the hunters using a 223 are very experienced and take the time and have the skill to take a shot , or walk away. They realise they have little room for era and hunt accordingly.
Or some used a 223 because thats what was in their hands at the time. A step upto a 243 will have not that much more recoil , with a suppressor noise becomes a mute point. But you will have a lot more power and era margin.
This thread isn't about recommending a 223 for deer. Just what can be done in the right conditions with the right person behind it.

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Originally Posted by Chur Bay

Hey Tahr. What is your recipe please?

@Chur Bay 80grn Targex and 77grn Sierra match tipped 24.4grn 2206H. 2900 fps Standard T3.

chur. thanks

Originally Posted by r87mm

OMG, tikka yes. 223 probably no for a beginner. The most important things you should have gleamed from this thread are. Most of the hunters using a 223 are very experienced and take the time and have the skill to take a shot , or walk away. They realise they have little room for era and hunt accordingly.
Or some used a 223 because thats what was in their hands at the time. A step upto a 243 will have not that much more recoil , with a suppressor noise becomes a mute point. But you will have a lot more power and era margin.
This thread isn't about recommending a 223 for deer. Just what can be done in the right conditions with the right person behind it.

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Agree but also disagree. A poor shot is a poor shot. You can injure a deer as easily with a 243 or 308 as you can with a 223, and it's a logic that doesnt really pay out as otherwise we'd all be shooting 50's. There is an arbitrary point at which we each decide a firearm has enough energy for a clean kill but not to much as to be hard to shoot accurately, or to cumbersome to carry.



If you are buying a gun for. The first time with the express purpose of shooting deer a larger caliber will be a bit more forgiving on a few variables. Range, pass throughs, path deviation due to bush, and flexibility of suitable ammo choice without knowledge of projectiles and terminal performance. But it will also come at a cost of, ammo price, shoot ability, larger platform, etc

Originally Posted by Tahr

@Chur Bay 80grn Targex and 77grn Sierra match tipped 24.4grn 2206H. 2900 fps Standard T3.

@Tahr what COAL are you running with the Sierras? Thanks

Originally Posted by rimubay

@Tahr what COAL are you running with the Sierras? Thanks

Tikka mag length. 2.3" OAL for the 77 grn

I wish those 77 weren't so dam expensive.
I got a price the other day $120 per 100

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