223 on deer

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I know a few people that shoot deer with a 223 but its not a caliber I would recommend any new shooters using on deer unless you are confident you can get a good kill shot to the head.
I think the main reason they use 223 is the cheap ammo cost and low recoil.

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I would like to respectfully disagree with you there. Not sure if you have looked at all of the posts in this thread, but there is plenty of hard evidence that a .223 (especially using heavy for caliber bullets) is more than adequate for deer.

By your logic would you prefer a new shooters to use a long action or magnum cartridge instead? If getting a bullets in the vitals is the objective, I’ll put my salary on a newbie having a far higher hit rate with the .223…

I taught my two boys to shoot with 222 & 223. Both are excellent shots & have humanely killed deer with the 223 & 6x45. Had I given them a heavy recoiling rifle to learn on I doubt I would have had the same result, their confidence could well have been affected.
I agree with your comments Nick.

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I know a few people that shoot deer with a 223 but its not a caliber I would recommend any new shooters using on deer unless you are confident you can get a good kill shot to the head.
I think the main reason they use 223 is the cheap ammo cost and low recoil.

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Have you read the whole thread I wonder??

The wound channel and penetration of the 77 tipped match king is devastating and could easily be mistaken for a 243 or larger caliber. In fact Im using 74 and 80 grn Targex at present to tone the mess down a bit. Not quite the wound channel but great penetration and killing still.

Must try the 64g gamechanger again soon

Working my way through 50 and 60g V-Max at the moment for bulk shooting

Have 55g gameking and 60g NBT for the special stuff

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I know a few people that shoot deer with a 223 but its not a caliber I would recommend any new shooters using on deer unless you are confident you can get a good kill shot to the head.
I think the main reason they use 223 is the cheap ammo cost and low recoil.

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Bullshit

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I would like to respectfully disagree with you there. Not sure if you have looked at all of the posts in this thread, but there is plenty of hard evidence that a .223 (especially using heavy for caliber bullets) is more than adequate for deer.

By your logic would you prefer a new shooters to use a long action or magnum cartridge instead? If getting a bullets in the vitals is the objective, I’ll put my salary on a newbie having a far higher hit rate with the .223…

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Look, you probably have a point, there is alot ive been going through in this thread.
When I was looking at rifles at H&F, the guy there steered me away from .223 which i was inquiring about since my friends recommended i go that way.
He told me they wont easily take down a deer unless you hit in the right spot, in saying that, my friends mostly go for head/neck shots most of the time, he does also use 7mm08 a fair bit too.
Perhaps the shopkeeper felt since i was an adult, and not a 16yo that it would be more suitable for me to go for something larger?
Im not saying that a younger shooter should not jump in with a .308/303 or any other heavy caliber either, but there are other options.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

@Old_School back about 10 years ago NZ Hunter put out a chapter in thier magazine titled calibres for under 16s find it and have a good read,sit on it for a week then read it again...really down to earth no bullshit look at what is a tricky balancing act
off top of head/from memory
the top options were in no particular order as my memory isnt perfect
243
223
7.62x39mm
22-250 got a mention as did a down loaded .308
the creedmores and grendals werent readily avialable then but the gist of article was well worth getting head around
I own a very accurate .223 but bought a 7.62x39mm for our Son to learn with.... considering we keep ranges below 150yards either kills well but the x39mm gave more room for error....didnt help us when I misjudged range resulting in the only deer Ive ever had wounded and not recovered...not for lack of trying...a flatter shooting 243 would have cancelled my error
suppressors have made many previously unsuitable cartridges entirely OK for young folks..look at how many 6-7-8-9 year olds are shooting first deer with Dads .308-270-30/06 etc etc prior to suppressors it just wouldnt happen as recoil is no good for learner thus the 222-223 was often used under strict supervision and for short range..100yards n under.... it works as this whole thread shows IF YOU DO YOUR BIT..get in close enough and place pill well enough.

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Yes good advice, one of my friends had a 7.62x39 and was a great rifle, not much recoil, but still had plenty of punch at your target.
But most shops ive spoken too have recommended .308 to me, I think price and availability of ammo was also one factor in all of this.

Regarding .223 ammo, i also assume there is quite a variety to choose from and correct ammo selection would be critical.

oldschool....whats happened here,is in your ignorance/quest for information ,you have insulted a LOT of people by implying they are risking wounding animals....
your last line above...has nobody ever told you that assumption is the mother of all fuckups????
if you dont know,you dont know...thats part of the reason this thread is here..so you can read it and learn.
the guy in sport shop is correct..you would be better off with a .308 to shoot deer...NOBODY will deny that...but by same token if your recoil shy you would possibly be better off with .223 you still have to follow the rules,get in close enough and put right TYPE of projectile in right place...
you have two options with .222--223 etc either use fragile and go for head neck or crease and hope it blows a big enough area of damage to knock out animal /disable enough vitals to put it down quickly..or something harder and poke it through vital bits and hopefully break a shoulder if not two.... the heavy weights can do that with ease as can monos BUT you still got to put that tiny wee bit of metal in the right place.
I know people who regularly shoot deer with .22 magnum and others who use a 17 to do the same.... would I recomend it??? hell NO but they are surpurb markmen and are in range of undisturbed animals or animals are in spotlight or thermal scope.... do they occasionally have a cock up??? yip but will be into the follow up shots to disable animal bloody quick as can use semiauto in those tiny cartridges..private land pest control...
the thing with .308 etc is you CAN load them down to lower levels..eg turn your 308 into a 7.62x39mm or 30/30 for all intents and purposes... lower recoil by lowering projectile weight and/or speed. you cant make a 7.62x39mm into a .308..you can try but cant do it...wont get it fast enough.

Update: just got my 2nd buck with the same 70 grain blunt boys, approx 40 yards neck shot and it had quite an interesting wound channel turned a corner and blew out just above the opposite shoulder, he immediately collapsed like one of those wooden push puppet toys. I will always trust these rounds to do the job as long as I'm not cheeky enough to push past 150 yards or so.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

thats part of the problem.....a headshot ISNT the easiest or best shot to take...the neck is just as quick of killer and allows more room for error..a quartering away shot in the crease....tight in behind nearside leg angling forwards is by far and away the most CERTAIN killing shot with most room for error...yes animal may move off a small distance..but with no oil in the engine it wont be going far.

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The only time I've ever shot a deer in the neck was wish a 243 from 150 yards the bullet penciled through about 3 to 5 mm away from the spine and it did nothing. It penciled through and the deer just stood there shaking its head in pain and I had to shoot it in the head after that . So I've never taken another neck shot since it's either a headshot or a heart and lungs shot .

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strangley enough a mate did it on red hind with .30/06..she staggered and stood there after turning around so I shot with .270..same effect,she then fell over..both our shots missed bone.2" apart in and out hole on both sides of her neck. base of neck better option but Im usually a take out he front wheels type of guy. the only time I can recal head shooting a deer..yearling red,son had just shot its mate and another mate was also nearby,If I missed it had 2x 308s ready to drop it,I was sitting with my zastava in hands so head shot it.

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Originally Posted by Old_School

Look, you probably have a point, there is alot ive been going through in this thread.
When I was looking at rifles at H&F, the guy there steered me away from .223 which i was inquiring about since my friends recommended i go that way.
He told me they wont easily take down a deer unless you hit in the right spot, in saying that, my friends mostly go for head/neck shots most of the time, he does also use 7mm08 a fair bit too.
Perhaps the shopkeeper felt since i was an adult, and not a 16yo that it would be more suitable for me to go for something larger?
Im not saying that a younger shooter should not jump in with a .308/303 or any other heavy caliber either, but there are other options.



Yes good advice, one of my friends had a 7.62x39 and was a great rifle, not much recoil, but still had plenty of punch at your target.
But most shops ive spoken too have recommended .308 to me, I think price and availability of ammo was also one factor in all of this.

Regarding .223 ammo, i also assume there is quite a variety to choose from and correct ammo selection would be critical.

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I do `t have too much experience of using 223 and 556 NATO, but I did have some experience of using 7.62x39 and 54r on multiple platforms before. Talking about humane kill, in my humble opinion first is you can hit the kill spot, not two MOA away. 7.62x39 is not designed for accurate shooting out of 80m, it `s for close quarters. Once before I was thinking use bow for hunting since I have encountered many deer, goats, pigs in where I can `t use firearms, but I gave it up. I can use bow to hit a target out of 40m, but I do `t think the energy left could kill a goat instantly, unless the arrow punch through the heart or head.
I was that close to buy a bushmaster in Auckland before the event in Chch since I shot M16A1 regularly once a year before, and that was sweet. 7.62x39....no

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Originally Posted by 7mmsaum

Must try the 64g gamechanger again soon

Working my way through 50 and 60g V-Max at the moment for bulk shooting

Have 55g gameking and 60g NBT for the special stuff

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How do those Gamechangers go?

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Originally Posted by Old_School

I know a few people that shoot deer with a 223 but its not a caliber I would recommend any new shooters using on deer unless you are confident you can get a good kill shot to the head.
I think the main reason they use 223 is the cheap ammo cost and low recoil.

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My mate was introduced to deer via my old Browning A Bolt. He shot 2 deer on his first outing. He bought an X bolt and unfortunately for big stgs up the coast he slays them with 55gr Barnes. He shoots a lot of deer. His best this roar of a 320 DS stag. Guess what he shot it with. LOL.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

How do those Gamechangers go?

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Sorted a load with 2208 @3100fps

Shot a few goats n reds then parked them up until I’m through the 65g Gamekings and 60g vmax

Dropped both goats and deer well,never checked wound channel

You don't have to do anything different with a .223 than with any other cartridge if you load decent bullets. Shoot the animal in the big important organs up the front, through the shoulder if you like. It dies.

Shot 4 deer with the 60 grain Hammer Hunter last evening. 3100 fps. Ranges 150 - 230 yards. All shoulder/chest shot and all pass throughs. 3 of them big lumps of red spikers. One shot each and only one ran (35 yards). Impressive. Expensive too.

You don't get the petal damage around the exit like you do with the bigger caliber Hammers but I guess that its going on inside 'cos its pretty gooey in there.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Shot 4 deer with the 60 grain Hammer Hunter last evening. 3100 fps. Ranges 150 - 230 yards. All shoulder/chest shot and all pass throughs. 3 of them big lumps of red spikers. One shot each and only one ran (35 yards). Impressive. Expensive too.

You don't get the petal damage around the exit like you do with the bigger caliber Hammers but I guess that its going on inside 'cos its pretty gooey in there.

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Nice work

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Has anyone tried the cutting edge 60gr raptors or 78gr MHTs?

Haven’t heard of anyone using them. The 78’s will need a 1-7” twist barrel and I don’t imagine they (.223s with 1-7” twist barrel) are very common.

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Haven’t heard of anyone using them. The 78’s will need a 1-7” twist barrel and I don’t imagine they (.223s with 1-7” twist barrel) are very common.

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1:8 should do 77's etc

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Originally Posted by 300CALMAN

1:8 should do 77's etc

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Not solid copper ones…. Manufacturer states 1-7” required

there just about is niche there for blunt monos.like the 30/30 ones so a reasonably heavy projectile will still stabalise in lesser twist..yes I know compromise will be lesser BC and will slow down quickly..but would allow a more heavy pill to be used up close....

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Shot 4 deer with the 60 grain Hammer Hunter last evening. 3100 fps. Ranges 150 - 230 yards. All shoulder/chest shot and all pass throughs. 3 of them big lumps of red spikers. One shot each and only one ran (35 yards). Impressive. Expensive too.

You don't get the petal damage around the exit like you do with the bigger caliber Hammers but I guess that its going on inside 'cos its pretty gooey in there.

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Comparison test?

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Originally Posted by TeRei

Comparison test?

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Not enough use to truly compare really. But on a price/effectiveness ratio the Targex 69, 74 and 80 win. All less than half the price of the Hammers and all kill well. The Targex leave good wound channels but seldom exit although the 80's sometimes do. The 60 Hammers' all exited (I like that). The best wound channels and killing of all that I use are with the 77 Sierra Tipped but they are a bit spendy too, but not like the Hammers for price.

Overall I dont think the Hammers are worth the cost in the .223 but if you want penetration and ensured kills they are probably right up there - especially on bigger reds. You dont seem to quite get the petal churn with these smaller Hammers like the bigger caliber ones do. Ive still got 80 or so left so will keep using them and keep reporting. Its all interesting and fun.

The obvious clue is that for you the heavier pills are doing better? Interesting.

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Originally Posted by TeRei

The obvious clue is that for you the heavier pills are doing better? Interesting.

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Yes. 70-80 grn seem to be the sweet spot - for me anyway. Monos can be a bit lighter. Contingent on barrel twist.

Im doing a goat cull early next week and will try a few Hammers on them - damned expensive culling.

Also on your calculations 3/4 of your best are NZ rollies. Who said kiwi made aint good. Happy culling. Done 200 Hammers. Yet to try. Going sightseeing next week. Might take a couple. Best.

Those Hammers!

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Home now. They were 240 yards (above). Yearling side on low heart shot. Staggered 5 yards and tipped over. I could see blood spraying all over the place through my scope. Mum ran 20 yards and stopped facing me. Front on chest shot and she bolted. I found her 15 yards away.

When I gutted them they both had shredded hearts. Not sure if that was the main projectile or petal damage. Will have a good look when I go and collect them from the scrub tree in a couple of days. Couldn't be stuffed carrying them tonight.

Front on one.
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I took my Son out for a quick hunt tonight, he couldn't stop laughing when I put my little 223 round beside his 7mm rem mag however I had the last laugh when I dropped this spiker @ 200 meters using the 77gr TMK's straight down no farting in church :thumbsup:

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A big relief as my freezer was starting to look a little lean

@7mm Rem Mag where did you hit it?

Good work.

Gooding hunting for June,well done.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

@7mm Rem Mag where did you hit it?

Good work.

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I aimed for the head, when I saw the blood around its mouth I thought maybe I had hit a lung but on inspection of the carcase there was absolutely no sign of a wound anywhere so a head shot it is.

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Ha ha I did think it could have died of a heart attack with the projectile of the mighty 223 passing close by :thumbsup:

Thanks @Tahr for helping me with the load for the 77gr TMK's, I think my load is 1 grain of powder less than yours from memory but still very accurate.

Hi Tahr I've got a couple of questions.
Which Hammers are you using and in what grain weight? What's the minimum expanding velocity?

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Originally Posted by tikka

Hi Tahr I've got a couple of questions.
Which Hammers are you using and in what grain weight? What's the minimum expanding velocity?

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Im using 60 grain Hammer Hunters out of a 20" 1:9 barrel. 20 thou off lands. I used max book charge from hornady data for 27 grns CFE223 powder and 60 grain bullet. 3,100 fps. No pressure signs.
Recommended minimum velocity is 1,800 fps. That equates to 475 yards with my load. See this: There is a comment from the the owner of Hammer. https://www.longrangehunting.com/thr...locity.273925/

I have also played with (still playing) 52 grn Hammer Hunters and 26.5 grns BM2. Not grouping with first try so will push the projectile out from 2.3" OAL to the 20 thou off lands and drop the powder charge a fraction (slight flattening of the primer).

Its a damned expensive way to kill deer seeming the cup and core bullets work so well. But I enjoy the mucking around. They will stay in the mix and I will leave my M7 sighted in for them - I have 2 other .223's sighted in for other stuff :)

the last comment posted in above link is rather good.....must know more details as have to poke 3600fps in at muzzle to get that.....meaning retained velocity at said range.....

Angled in from front on-ish. 150 odd yards Hammer 60 grain.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Angled in from front on-ish. 150 odd yards Hammer 60 grain.

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Hammer alright. Loving that hole :cool::cool::cool:

That rifle a deadly little shooter there.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Angled in from front on-ish. 150 odd yards Hammer 60 grain.

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From memory you have a couple of different .223 Rifles.
Which is your favourite “ Go To “ or most often used one ?