223 on deer

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Originally Posted by caberslash

Sorta.

On the right compound bow/crossbow setup, you are transferring a huge amount of energy at shorter ranges, the right arrow with go straight through ballistic glass.

Trajectory (and hence range) is the weak point of arrows, not killing power.

That being said I'll take a .223/.222 anyday!

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ACTUALLY its not huge energy transpher that does that...its sectional density pure and simple...
many years ago on bullshit TV show thats incredible they did a demo with firearm Vs Bow n arrow into a sandbag..the bullet was of course stopped as it expended its energy into sand,the arrow however kept on sailing through,as the front of arrow is trying to slow down the bum of arrow is still pushing it along,like a train sort of thing.

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Originally Posted by Kiwikev

100% agree with Micky....150yd, broadside, through the crease, 55grn sp.....keep it simple.

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That’s fine if you want to limit yourself.
You are leaving a lot of performance on the table though. ‘Cos the 223 uses trauma and damage to kill rather than foot pounds of energy, a heavier soft projectile at reasonable velocity will win every time.

for me...its more a case of,the projectiles and loads I use ,Im really confident out to that range and KNOW they will work fine..past that,my confidence isnt the same,so happier to let animal walk...its actually why I onsold the lovely wee 7.62x39mm short bolt action I had....the chance of a 300 yard shot is often on where I normally bush hunt,I felt that rifle also was 150yard and no more...in my hands.
IF I ever manage to wear out my .223 barrel,a fast twist jobbie will allow heavier projectiles and longer range,untill then Im happy to limit myself somewhat......or take the 270w

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Originally Posted by makka

I was thinking the 80gn targex, how do they go on animals?
The build all hinges on what happens first, I find a 1:8 223 barrel at the right price or the 243ai reamer I have been waiting on turns up, then I'll run the 95gn targex in it

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@makka the 95gr targex hasn't been available for quite some time. However the 105gr is and it is absolutely outstanding. Kills way better than it should. 600 yards plus so fair bit more than I'd ever do with a .223.
When I can track down a new tikka with the 1:8" I'll probably trade my current .243 in for it and whack an ai reamer up it as well.
With reloder 26 still get about 2900fps with the 105gr out of an 18" 1:9" barrel.

Sorry bit off track for this thread.

Last evening. 2@175 yds. 80 grn Targex. First one neck, second one lung.

If you zoom in the first pic you can see them about 20 yds apart after I had shot them.

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Good work @Tahr lovely looking rifle. A savage?

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Originally Posted by Dama dama

Good work @Tahr lovely looking rifle. A savage?

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Savage Lightweight re- barrel'd with 1:8 Trueflight. Jaco on here did the work.

Awesome looking county well done.

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Originally Posted by 25/08 IMP

Awesome looking county well done.

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Quite a load for the old guy by the time I had the legs too. Crossed over to the face then followed the ridge and back round.

I'm finding the 22 cal impressive, whilst nite hunting with thermal spotter and infr I had a sambar stag walk to the bush edge of the paddock. A Hillar shot with the 22 hornet and win 46 gr hp, thirty yrd sprint and he's now ready to be processed .

Nice work Tahr. What sort of scope is that youre running on said 223??

Mine is ready apparently. I just have to go to Cambridge to get it. Crook with the flu atm so not going anywhere!!

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Originally Posted by tac a1

Nice work Tahr. What sort of scope is that youre running on said 223??

Mine is ready apparently. I just have to go to Cambridge to get it. Crook with the flu atm so not going anywhere!!

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https://tractoptics.com/riflescopes/...ng-rifle-scope

There are some rotten bugs around at the moment. Whats your rifle?

To make it 3 for 3, this one wandered into my torch on the way home. About 100 yards. With a light in its eyes, rifle on a solid bi-pod and an accurate rifle it wasn't fair really. Neck shot.

On my way home I was thinking about the difference a good trigger makes. That Savage has great trigger that Jaco fiddled with. Ive got a Timmy for it but haven't bothered.

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First try with 52 grain Hammer Hunters yesterday. 3,400 fps from 20" barrel. Group about .75 moa. 4 shots for 3 (front on one didn't drop straight away so it copped another one).

This one at 150 yards. Good blood trail down the hill and vicious exit. The other 2 were 40 and 80 yards. All were pass throughs. Shoulder shots and nothing ran further than 10 yards.

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This one 40 yards. Top of its heart blown off.

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@Tahr they obviously go very well.
Compared to the run of the mill Barnes what do they do diggerently?

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

@Tahr they obviously go very well.
Compared to the run of the mill Barnes what do they do diggerently?

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@csmiffy Rather than mushroom they shed their petals which creates wider damage and churn and the shank rips on through.

In this pic you can see that it demolished the heart but also there is petal damage in the lungs.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

https://tractoptics.com/riflescopes/...ng-rifle-scope

There are some rotten bugs around at the moment. Whats your rifle?

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Gday,

Its a Howa on an elude chassis. Carbon barrel.

Havent had time to muck around with it too much yet. No optics on it yet so still working on that.

Hopefully it will be a dinger once i get it up and running.

@Tahr What are your initial impressions on terminal performance of the Hammers vs TMK?

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Originally Posted by Hunty1

@Tahr What are your initial impressions on terminal performance of the Hammers vs TMK?

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TMK you get a lot more blood shot and ruined meat. Both kill really well. I think on bigger animals the enhanced penetration is a plus for the hammers. Hammers are expensive, but so are TMK's. For me its hard to go past Targex 80 grain.

I've recently returned from a four-day excursion in the Kaimanawa Forest hunting the elusive Sika. That was my fourth foray on conservation estate land, and, like the others, my hiking high and low was fruitless, not only in terms of not shooting a deer, but in not even sighting one! I did, however, hear one whistle, which I suppose means I was close to encountering the beast. Anyway, that's not why I'm adding to this already generous 223 thread. I'm relatively new to hunting (shot my first fallow five years ago on private land with a Shultz & Larsen 223 and several others since with the same rifle), and allowed myself to be persuaded that such a calibre was unsuitable for the type of bush hunting we were going to engage with. So, I took my newly-acquired second-hand Mauser M12 chambered in 6.5x55. It's a heavier rifle and I did wonder whether that calibre's ability to be less subject to deflection was worth the physical effort. Another consideration, I was also informed that any Sika I might hit with that calibre would not move as far away as one shot with my trusty 64gr Winchester Deer Season. Anyway, my question: who would take the 6.5x55 over the 223 when hunting Sika in that environment and why?

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Originally Posted by NoMis

I've recently returned from a four-day excursion in the Kaimanawa Forest hunting the elusive Sika. That was my fourth foray on conservation estate land, and, like the others, my hiking high and low was fruitless, not only in terms of not shooting a deer, but in not even sighting one! I did, however, hear one whistle, which I suppose means I was close to encountering the beast. Anyway, that's not why I'm adding to this already generous 223 thread. I'm relatively new to hunting (shot my first fallow five years ago on private land with a Shultz & Larsen 223 and several others since with the same rifle), and allowed myself to be persuaded that such a calibre was unsuitable for the type of bush hunting we were going to engage with. So, I took my newly-acquired second-hand Mauser M12 chambered in 6.5x55. It's a heavier rifle and I did wonder whether that calibre's ability to be less subject to deflection was worth the physical effort. Another consideration, I was also informed that any Sika I might hit with that calibre would not move as far away as one shot with my trusty 64gr Winchester Deer Season. Anyway, my question: who would take the 6.5x55 over the 223 when hunting Sika in that environment and why?

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Exactly that I would think the 223 would deflect in bush rather easy. And also in sika country you might end up seeing a deer 3 400 yards away and definitely wouldn't want to try with a 223 . I carry a 300 blk for bush hunting sika but once I shot at a stag and I was fairly confident of the shot but I wonder if they would deflect also . And it has had me wanting to go back to my old trusty bush 18 inch 300wsm. Nothing stops that . I was once up on top of the urchin looking at a red hind with my 300 blk in my hand and all I could think was if only I had my wsm . I wouldn't bother trying with 223 or 300blk at that range .

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Originally Posted by Phill243

Exactly that I would think the 223 would deflect in bush rather easy. And also in sika country you might end up seeing a deer 3 400 yards away and definitely wouldn't want to try with a 223 . I carry a 300 blk for bush hunting sika but once I shot at a stag and I was fairly confident of the shot but I wonder if they would deflect also . And it has had me wanting to go back to my old trusty bush 18 inch 300wsm. Nothing stops that . I was once up on top of the urchin looking at a red hind with my 300 blk in my hand and all I could think was if only I had my wsm . I wouldn't bother trying with 223 or 300blk at that range .

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OK, I hear that - but the deer I might've seen in that environment would've been, at most, I reckon, 60 or so metres away, perhaps considerably less.

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Originally Posted by NoMis

I've recently returned from a four-day excursion in the Kaimanawa Forest hunting the elusive Sika. That was my fourth foray on conservation estate land, and, like the others, my hiking high and low was fruitless, not only in terms of not shooting a deer, but in not even sighting one! I did, however, hear one whistle, which I suppose means I was close to encountering the beast. Anyway, that's not why I'm adding to this already generous 223 thread. I'm relatively new to hunting (shot my first fallow five years ago on private land with a Shultz & Larsen 223 and several others since with the same rifle), and allowed myself to be persuaded that such a calibre was unsuitable for the type of bush hunting we were going to engage with. So, I took my newly-acquired second-hand Mauser M12 chambered in 6.5x55. It's a heavier rifle and I did wonder whether that calibre's ability to be less subject to deflection was worth the physical effort. Another consideration, I was also informed that any Sika I might hit with that calibre would not move as far away as one shot with my trusty 64gr Winchester Deer Season. Anyway, my question: who would take the 6.5x55 over the 223 when hunting Sika in that environment and why?

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I personally believe you would see bugger all difference between the two. An unsuitable bullet in the 6.5 could even result in a longer trailing job than the .223 with the right bullet. This thread is up to 82 pages of evidence that shows that the .223 is definitely up to the job, it just takes a mindset of accepting the data, and dismissing the ‘emotional’ non data driven statements about cartridge choice.

But at the end of the day, take whichever one you are most accurate with. Accuracy equals confidence, and confidence will keep any negative thoughts in check. If you’ve shot fallow with the .223, then a sika is no different. It’s still just flesh and bone….

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Originally Posted by NoMis

OK, I hear that - but the deer I might've seen in that environment would've been, at most, I reckon, 60 or so metres away, perhaps considerably less.

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60 meters, peice of piss with a 223

I flattened a fallow stag last week @ 230m with 53gr TSX Barnes. Never moved. The petals we shedded but the main projectile remained intact. My mate up the coast shot a red stag with 55gr TSX Barnes but it had perfect petal peel back. Both powered by BM2. My mate says his Barnes are not exiting but perfect expansion and always lodged on inside skin on other side. These are not runty Kaweka deer but fat coast pine block brutes.

Any empirical evidence that exists tends to show that ALL high velocity light calibre rifle bullets deflect a great deal if you hit a bit of shrubbery, a 6.5 is not measurably better than a .223 - you'll miss by miles with either if you hit a twig that isn't immediately against your deer

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Originally Posted by NoMis

I've recently returned from a four-day excursion in the Kaimanawa Forest hunting the elusive Sika. That was my fourth foray on conservation estate land, and, like the others, my hiking high and low was fruitless, not only in terms of not shooting a deer, but in not even sighting one! I did, however, hear one whistle, which I suppose means I was close to encountering the beast. Anyway, that's not why I'm adding to this already generous 223 thread. I'm relatively new to hunting (shot my first fallow five years ago on private land with a Shultz & Larsen 223 and several others since with the same rifle), and allowed myself to be persuaded that such a calibre was unsuitable for the type of bush hunting we were going to engage with. So, I took my newly-acquired second-hand Mauser M12 chambered in 6.5x55. It's a heavier rifle and I did wonder whether that calibre's ability to be less subject to deflection was worth the physical effort. Another consideration, I was also informed that any Sika I might hit with that calibre would not move as far away as one shot with my trusty 64gr Winchester Deer Season. Anyway, my question: who would take the 6.5x55 over the 223 when hunting Sika in that environment and why?

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None of the Sika or Red Deer I've shot with my 223 are any less dead than when I used my 7mm08. Shot placement.

That last comment sums it up.shot placement.i will buck trend somewhat by adding. If shot isn't spot on.the larger/heavier projectile SHOULD slow animal down more than lighter one. A shot fair up the arse canal on good stag....yeah the 6.5 all day long. The shot at moving animal...same choice for same reason. I like to smash the front wheels. The wee 222/223 using a Barnes will do it. But the 270 does it more..double edged sword.more ruined meat but an anchored animal. Use heavy .223 projectile and the difference will be much less.

Ye they can't go ne where with front diff blowen.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

That last comment sums it up.shot placement.i will buck trend somewhat by adding. If shot isn't spot on.the larger/heavier projectile SHOULD slow animal down more than lighter one. A shot fair up the arse canal on good stag....yeah the 6.5 all day long. The shot at moving animal...same choice for same reason. I like to smash the front wheels. The wee 222/223 using a Barnes will do it. But the 270 does it more..double edged sword.more ruined meat but an anchored animal. Use heavy .223 projectile and the difference will be much less.

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Appreciate the nuance you bring, MD. I typically use a Winchester 64g round but have also had tight groupings with the Hornady 75g Black. Would you say that the 64g is a heavy projectile?Attachment 233773

either is heavy compared to a 50-55grn.
funny I have ,on this thread asked if jumping from 55 up to a 60grn is any advantage...and have sung praises of the 22lr 42grn Vs the 36-40grn jobbies..... funny really.

69 grn Targex. Allowed over a foot for a howling wind and still got an extra foot drift. 114 yards. Low hit behind the shoulder. Ran 10 yards.

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Crikey must have been a hell of a wind for that much drift

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Originally Posted by charliehorse

Crikey must have been a hell of a wind for that much drift

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Tekapo today 80 - 100km/ph gusts. It was piping. Probably 40-50km/ph when I took the shot (25-30 mph).

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Originally Posted by Tahr

69 grn Targex. Allowed over a foot for a howling wind and still got an extra foot drift. 114 yards. Low hit behind the shoulder. Ran 10 yards.

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Nice shooting bro. Ring Waiouru they will offer you a job. LOL.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Any empirical evidence that exists tends to show that ALL high velocity light calibre rifle bullets deflect a great deal if you hit a bit of shrubbery, a 6.5 is not measurably better than a .223 - you'll miss by miles with either if you hit a twig that isn't immediately against your deer

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Agreed. The .223 can do ok through light scrub.
I shot this fallow at about 150 yards through brushy scrub.The 80 grn Targex appears to have expanded before it hit the animal because the pic is of the entrance wound. Penetration wasn't great and I fished around and found the bullet in the lung cavity and wound channel.
Snowing here in Tekapo so Ive got time on my hands...

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So, despite Belmont 55gr ammo being good enough for about 124 deer in the last 17 months I thought I’d have a play with 73 gr ELDM’s. Loaded a few from 22-23 gr of Varget at std OAL. After spending the night out shooting a farm last night I decided to have a play with them. Was just shooting 3 shot groups to get an idea of what load to settle on when a deer showed up in a scrubby gulley @ 274m. So, why not? I sent a 23gr powder load it’s way. One dead animal later might be on to a useful load. Bullet expanded alright, found near offside shoulder. Bit later on shot a turkey at similar range with last 22gr load and a magpie at 362m with last 23gr load. Lucky shooting considering I was taking pot luck and using StrelokPro data for Belmont Black 55. Apparently it’s close enough. Load fine tuning could be interesting but then I might not bother, why fix what might not be broken.Might just validate drops properly. Just loaded a few more at 23 gr Varget, will go test on some animals tomorrow. Now to sit back and watch Indian MotoGP practice.

Main issue I have is lack of blood trail with a .223,sold mine long ago and now use .308,243 and 44 mag,mostly bush hunt so want a good trail for the dog to follow up if needed.

and the answer to that will be...if they drop on spot,you dont need to trail them..which is sort of like a Kenny Rogers song.... know when to hold em,know when to fold em..know when to walk away...
hold on and dont shoot untill shot is good enough to fold them on the spot..or walk away from shot if they start to run....

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Originally Posted by woods223

So, despite Belmont 55gr ammo being good enough for about 124 deer in the last 17 months I thought I’d have a play with 73 gr ELDM’s. Loaded a few from 22-23 gr of Varget at std OAL. After spending the night out shooting a farm last night I decided to have a play with them. Was just shooting 3 shot groups to get an idea of what load to settle on when a deer showed up in a scrubby gulley @ 274m. So, why not? I sent a 23gr powder load it’s way. One dead animal later might be on to a useful load. Bullet expanded alright, found near offside shoulder. Bit later on shot a turkey at similar range with last 22gr load and a magpie at 362m with last 23gr load. Lucky shooting considering I was taking pot luck and using StrelokPro data for Belmont Black 55. Apparently it’s close enough. Load fine tuning could be interesting but then I might not bother, why fix what might not be broken.Might just validate drops properly. Just loaded a few more at 23 gr Varget, will go test on some animals tomorrow. Now to sit back and watch Indian MotoGP practice.

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Interesting. I have just done it the other way around. My number one load is the 73gn ELD-M with 2206H but I was given some 55gn Belmont Black to use this week (sorry @Tahr, I thought they were 62gn) and they gave the same POI as my 73s at 100m. I have just been using them on goats and pigs and my first impressions is that they don't kill as well. Especially on the bigger animals.