223 on deer

I found the 55gr Hornady SP that I loaded with BM2 shot same POI at 100m as my 73g ELD m. I have now stopped using two bullets and solely use the 73g with 2206H.

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Originally Posted by The bomb

Main issue I have is lack of blood trail with a .223,sold mine long ago and now use .308,243 and 44 mag,mostly bush hunt so want a good trail for the dog to follow up if needed.

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The expensive Hammer Hunters fix that problem with the .223. If its a problem.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Agreed. The .223 can do ok through light scrub.
I shot this fallow at about 150 yards through brushy scrub.The 80 grn Targex appears to have expanded before it hit the animal because the pic is of the entrance wound. Penetration wasn't great and I fished around and found the bullet in the lung cavity and wound channel.
Snowing here in Tekapo so Ive got time on my hands...

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Snow is bloody typical, have been sending nor westers across to melt the white stuff as I'm landing in chch on the 28th and doing solo fly camp. Did that a few yrs ago in early Nov with 12 inches of snow every where, not a lot of fun.

Where are you guys getting your 223 projectiles from at the moment?? Seems to be a huge shortage

Targex??

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Originally Posted by tac a1

Where are you guys getting your 223 projectiles from at the moment?? Seems to be a huge shortage

Targex??

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Yes
targex10.1@gmail.com

Ok thanks Tahr. Ive got my rifle now if you would like a photo

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Originally Posted by tac a1

Ok thanks Tahr. Ive got my rifle now if you would like a photo

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Yes

Shot this hind last night. 398 yds. 69gn tmk. Smashed it.
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That's stretching it, good shooting.

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Originally Posted by Kiwikev

That's stretching it, good shooting.

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Yes it was. To be fair conditions were perfect and the rest was rock solid.
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We shot two other deer a hind at 180 yds and a stag at 270 yds. All 3 took a few steps after being hit then went legs up. I find the 69gn TMK awesome killers. The only reason I don’t use 77gns or bigger is I need the speed out of my short barrel. I chopped mine to 16” and need lighter bullets for speed. I’m getting 2940fps with a compressed load of 2206H. I think that is around the limit range wise for this rifle. I have others that are better suited.

Another with 69 grn Targex a few days ago. 115 yards. Did a little .223 stagger and tipped over.

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While doing research on another calibre (6.5x55, 160 gr round nose soft point), I came across this Kiwi website that has a lot to say about the .223 as a hunting round. The page briefly recounts the history of the calibre, discusses its performance, compares factory and handloads, and then makes a few concluding remarks. One of the author's performance observations is: "Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock."

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

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Originally Posted by NoMis

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

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All he's saying is that you've gotta be on the money to ensure a fast kill. Which is pretty obvious to anyone who chooses to take a .223 Rem over a .308 Win, for example.

The "always slow" part is outdared - try a 69gr or 77gr TMK into the lungs and see how slow "slow" is. Ditto the old 75gr A-Max I used to use. My old school 70gr Speer semi-spitzers will make a red hind stagger and fall over in short order.

It's important to remember that Nathan Foster is a magnum cartridge long range man. Not really that inclined towards the small calibre precision business.

and also important to realise that article was written BEFORE the 1;8 twists and heavier than 64grn projectiles were in common usage..MOST folk using a .223 were still using 55grn soft points.
agree 100% flyblown.... you got to place your shots,that hasnt changed...you have more margin for error now..but that will never change.it is after all a tiny bit of metal going fast to take down a big hunk of animal.

Hi NoMis,good practice for you is to shoot a 100 or so rabbits at 200yds first.Then youl have no problem shoot deer in the right place.

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Originally Posted by NoMis

While doing research on another calibre (6.5x55, 160 gr round nose soft point), I came across this Kiwi website that has a lot to say about the .223 as a hunting round. The page briefly recounts the history of the calibre, discusses its performance, compares factory and handloads, and then makes a few concluding remarks. One of the author's performance observations is: "Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock."

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

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My first large game riffle was the 7mm rem mag and I thought it was the only calibre to use on deer until I started reading posts from champion hunters like Tahr.

After the endless kills posted I decided why not try this myself? So I bought a 223 and reloaded 62gr -80gr projectiles and have shot numerous deer since.

My conclusion is the 7mm rem mag can stay in the safe and I will happily use my 223 on all game, 7mm rem mag will only come out if I know I'm going to be shooting over 300 meters.

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Originally Posted by NoMis

While doing research on another calibre (6.5x55, 160 gr round nose soft point), I came across this Kiwi website that has a lot to say about the .223 as a hunting round. The page briefly recounts the history of the calibre, discusses its performance, compares factory and handloads, and then makes a few concluding remarks. One of the author's performance observations is: "Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock."

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

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I would call Nathan Foster One of the most knowledgeable people worldwide on the subject of terminal ballistics. I own several of his book, the most recent one he wrote on the subject does cover the more modern heavy projectiles for the .223. He speaks quite highly of the the likes of the Hornady ELDM and the Sierra TMK's. He tends to recommend the Match grade projectiles for longer ranges because they tend to expand better than some of the heavier jacketed projectiles like the Barnes Tripleshock intended for game shooting.
His writings on Long range shooting and bullet performance on game are great reads, I recommend them for both seasoned hunters and newbies.

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Originally Posted by zeropak

I would call Nathan Foster One of the most knowledgeable people worldwide on the subject of terminal ballistics. I own several of his book, the most recent one he wrote on the subject does cover the more modern heavy projectiles for the .223. He speaks quite highly of the the likes of the Hornady ELDM and the Sierra TMK's. He tends to recommend the Match grade projectiles for longer ranges because they tend to expand better than some of the heavier jacketed projectiles like the Barnes Tripleshock intended for game shooting.
His writings on Long range shooting and bullet performance on game are great reads, I recommend them for both seasoned hunters and newbies.

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I have the opposite opinion

He learned everything he could by reading forums and ringing everyone to pick their brains

His motivator to create a latent income from his website

Verbose generalisations do not an expert make

There are some very humble hunters and shooters in NZ that are light years ahead in actual experience and technical capability, They’re just not inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity

I find it amusing that this thread is 84 pages of dead deer shot with the .223. Yet every 8-10 pages we have to have an opinion piece quoting a local expert to the contrary. The .223 is my go to now. Why ? It’s accurate, quiet and deadly. The last 20 odd deer we’ve shot have been killed cleanly at various ranges. That’s fact and experience- not ballistic theories.

Both when shooting a .223 at an animal and considering Mr Fosters' writings you need to take a big breath. It will ensure accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and also important to realise that article was written BEFORE the 1;8 twists and heavier than 64grn projectiles were in common usage..MOST folk using a .223 were still using 55grn soft points.
agree 100% flyblown.... you got to place your shots,that hasnt changed...you have more margin for error now..but that will never change.it is after all a tiny bit of metal going fast to take down a big hunk of animal.

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I did wonder at how dated the research and conclusions were; there wasn't any obvious date stamp on the website's page; so, it's helpful to have this info.

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Originally Posted by Trout

Hi NoMis,good practice for you is to shoot a 100 or so rabbits at 200yds first.Then youl have no problem shoot deer in the right place.

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I'd be happy to do that, as I'm partial to rabbit meat, but living in a major urban environment and not having many farming connections, such a possibility is slim. Still, I'm off the range today, so let's see what that brings...

Well, seeing as how the knives are out, I'll add that Mr Foster has yet to be convinced that the 6.5mm is up to cleanly killing red deer. But to be fair, the useful stuff he has done remains useful, the rest we are free to ignore.

"They’re just not inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity."

That's a well-written and mirth-inducing phrase, 7mmsaum :thumbsup:

I'm assuming the author is referring to the effectiveness of the 223 at long range on animals?

Because, for the life of me, I can't figure out how all the reds I've shot this year have died given I'm using a 223 in 55g Sako Gamehead SP? All were shot up close in the bush (less 40 yards) have all died within 1-10m, apart from one at a canter that we found 40m away. Chest shots with large exit wounds and broken limbs on the other side, heat shots, neck shots and one shot a bit far back in the rib cage Again, they are no less dead than deer I've shot with the 7mm08 up close.

Well It looks like Nathan Foster might have a bit of history with some forum members. I know nothing about that but I do enjoy his videos and books. I can't say I agree with all his findings and assertions but the amount of research he has done into terminal ballistics is impressive. I was surprised to see that in his latest book he does actually agree that the .223 can be an effective larger game cartridge i.e. used on deer. The proviso as always is the correct bullet choice. I think the smaller and more marginal the chosen cartridge becomes for the intended target, the more important bullet selection becomes.`
Not sure where @Flyblown get the assertion that the 6.5 caliber is not adequate for deer sized game. The stuff I have read recently from Nathan Foster does not give this assertion. Maybe some of his older writing before the modern VLD type projectiles came along, and of course the invincible 6.5 Creedmoor.
Not trying to defend him, I have never met the man but I do think his knowledge on terminal ballistics is impressive.

ACTUALLY if you read what is said...he really rates it,the 6.5x55mm using partitions BUT like doing same in .270w you can get cocky and then have balls up when aim is off LOL....
HORSES FOR COURSES
if you get in close enough and aim well enough you can kill an elephant with a .22 short...its been done its all relative.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

ACTUALLY if you read what is said...he really rates it,the 6.5x55mm using partitions BUT like doing same in .270w you can get cocky and then have balls up when aim is off LOL....
HORSES FOR COURSES
if you get in close enough and aim well enough you can kill an elephant with a .22 short...its been done its all relative.

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How many pacaderms have you killed? Thought you only used 50gr TTSX. You down sizing. LOL.

the story goes...native poacher was caught..when he told rangers how he killed jumbo,he wasnt believed,so he demonstrated how...same way they used to use the elephant bow..lay on ground in/under path and shoot up into armpit from below,the heart is very close to surface and has little protection...
50 grn ttsx is my round of choice..but have also killed fallow with 55grn sierra sp and 52grn speer hp and a sierra 63grn sp,the blunt ones last 2 were from the wee .222
shot red spiker with the hornady bulk 55grn..very impressed BUT super calm conditions,calm deer and calm shooter,range was about 100 yards and will back myself to pluck head off bunny at that range with my .223.

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

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Originally Posted by Ground Control

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

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80 eldm - @gimp using 2208

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Originally Posted by zeropak

Well It looks like Nathan Foster might have a bit of history with some forum members. I know nothing about that but I do enjoy his videos and books. I can't say I agree with all his findings and assertions but the amount of research he has done into terminal ballistics is impressive. I was surprised to see that in his latest book he does actually agree that the .223 can be an effective larger game cartridge i.e. used on deer. The proviso as always is the correct bullet choice. I think the smaller and more marginal the chosen cartridge becomes for the intended target, the more important bullet selection becomes.`
Not sure where @Flyblown get the assertion that the 6.5 caliber is not adequate for deer sized game. The stuff I have read recently from Nathan Foster does not give this assertion. Maybe some of his older writing before the modern VLD type projectiles came along, and of course the invincible 6.5 Creedmoor.
Not trying to defend him, I have never met the man but I do think his knowledge on terminal ballistics is impressive.

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I may be somewhat cynical. He puts out some interesting information but he is a great user of the cut and paste feature of the internet.

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Originally Posted by NoMis

While doing research on another calibre (6.5x55, 160 gr round nose soft point), I came across this Kiwi website that has a lot to say about the .223 as a hunting round. The page briefly recounts the history of the calibre, discusses its performance, compares factory and handloads, and then makes a few concluding remarks. One of the author's performance observations is: "Apart from the use of FMJ ammunition, hunters using the .223 on medium game will achieve best results with neck and head shots. Typical sporting loads with conventional soft point ammunition can penetrate through the chest walls of medium game but kills are always slow if the CNS is not destroyed. The .223 does not have the power to initiate hydrostatic shock."

I'm not capable of determining the accuracy of the author's remarks but wonder whether those of you who do have such a skill set would agree or disagree with his observations?

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Holy shit a lot of words. Reckons the 80gr Amax is unreliable. Is wrong - probably has not actually used it. Will steer clear of commentary in general on that source but I'd suggest testing any particlar assertion to check evidence.

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Originally Posted by Ground Control

The amount of Deer on the hook in this thread just speaks volumes.

To change subjects slightly.

Who has had accuracy success with the 80 gn eldm’s ?
My Tikka will shoot them OK , but the 77 TMK’s just absolutely hammer into a tight cluster .
The eldm’s are accurate enough to hunt with , but the confidence that the TMK’s grouping ability inspires gives some real confidence.

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Same with my Tikka it shoots them ok but 77tmk and 80grn Targex through same hole.


Sent from my CPH2145 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by NoMis

"They’re just not inebriated with the exuberance of their own verbosity."

That's a well-written and mirth-inducing phrase, 7mmsaum :thumbsup:

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Dont encourage him NoMis ,that sentence, comes tantalizingly close to the epitome of verbose in its self , as does this.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Holy shit a lot of words. Reckons the 80gr Amax is unreliable. Is wrong - probably has not actually used it. Will steer clear of commentary in general on that source but I'd suggest testing any particlar assertion to check evidence.

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Actually In Nathan Fosters latest book "Long Range hunting cartridges" 2nd Edition. He recommends the 73,75 and 80gm ELDM's (Amax) as well as the Sierra 69 and 77gn TMK's. Quote "No other .224 calibre projectiles are in my experience capable of the same level of reliable fragmentation in the absence of both high velocity and bullet energy - while carrying sufficient bullet weight for retained energy at extended ranges" end of quote.

He ought to update his website - it still says the 80 is unreliable

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Originally Posted by zeropak

Actually In Nathan Fosters latest book "Long Range hunting cartridges" 2nd Edition. He recommends the 73,75 and 80gm ELDM's (Amax) as well as the Sierra 69 and 77gn TMK's. Quote "No other .224 calibre projectiles are in my experience capable of the same level of reliable fragmentation in the absence of both high velocity and bullet energy - while carrying sufficient bullet weight for retained energy at extended ranges" end of quote.

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Well Ive read that quote several times and still cant figure out what it means??

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Originally Posted by zeropak

Actually In Nathan Fosters latest book "Long Range hunting cartridges" 2nd Edition. He recommends the 73,75 and 80gm ELDM's (Amax) as well as the Sierra 69 and 77gn TMK's.

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that’s probably because he read this thread!

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Well Ive read that quote several times and still cant figure out what it means??

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Yeah I agree with you in a way. Think the word "Fragmentation" is wrong, a poor choice of words. To me that would indicate projectile failure. However in the context of the book he tends to use this word to describe a projectile which has expanded reliably and lost a certain percentage of its weight as it travel through the animal. Most projectiles intended for soft skinned game, such as deer do exactly that.