223 on deer

Sax was always monster when it came to Deer recovery :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

That's what I imagined. Looks a smart way to do it.

Thx. I'll keep that in mind.

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Attachment 259085

Don't cut the bum out MD . You won't have that problem

Anyone had any luck with 69gr tmk and 2208?

Shot the .223 out to 600M today 73 eldm slight bit of wind but pretty good I thought https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9c3f40e2d8.jpg

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Shot a few reds with 223 tikka, used federal rounds. Knocked them through neck/shoulder shots pretty easy. But shot placement is key, if you hit a deer in the shoulder blade it likely won’t be fatal, aim behind the shoulder blade if you want to drop it.

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Originally Posted by ButcherBoy

Shot a few reds with 223 tikka, used federal rounds. Knocked them through neck/shoulder shots pretty easy. But shot placement is key, if you hit a deer in the shoulder blade it likely won’t be fatal, aim behind the shoulder blade if you want to drop it.

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The impact sound is a lot more substantial thud with the heavyweights compared to the 55gr. Even hitting solid bones like the humerus and scapular sounds of a louder crack.

Quote from the forum 223 Orthopaedic Surgeon named Tikka. LOL.

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Originally Posted by ButcherBoy

Shot a few reds with 223 tikka, used federal rounds. Knocked them through neck/shoulder shots pretty easy. But shot placement is key, if you hit a deer in the shoulder blade it likely won’t be fatal, aim behind the shoulder blade if you want to drop it.

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Head/neck shot if it’s on and you’re a competent shot. Hilar shot otherwise. Agree, if you take high shoulder shot and hit the shoulder blade you possibly going to get a runner and lose animal unless shot is really high and you fluke a spine shot. If shooting for game chiller head/neck shots pay better money. If I’m culling/general hunting hilar shot is go to. Works for me and I’ve shot hundreds of deer thousands of goats in last few years.

How often has this happened? A .22 centrefire not pentrating a shoulder bone that is. This tread is full of success stories, a lot of which appear to be shoulder shots. To be fair, I would be surprised if even a standard 55gr bullet would not make it through the scapula.

According to the media in the States if you use an AR shooting a 223 there’s nothing left of a deer. It’s blown to pieces. You guys are telling me a bullet won’t penetrate a shoulder blade? :wut:

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Originally Posted by 260madman

According to the media in the States if you use an AR shooting a 223 there’s nothing left of a deer. It’s blown to pieces. You guys are telling me a bullet won’t penetrate a shoulder blade? :wut:

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According to the NZ media an AR is the root of all evil.

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Originally Posted by Dama dama

How often has this happened? A .22 centrefire not pentrating a shoulder bone that is. This tread is full of success stories, a lot of which appear to be shoulder shots. To be fair, I would be surprised if even a standard 55gr bullet would not make it through the scapula.

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A .224 projectile, or any other caliber, will penetrate onside scapular easy enough but not always the offside shoulder. If you don’t break both scapular and you hit the void between spine and major organs you end up with three legged animal, still more than capable of gapping it never to be seen again. If you hit onside scapular and a major organ or spine there’s a chance you’ll get animal. Over the past 47+ years I’ve witnessed a few animals lost with a too high shoulder shot from various caliber rifles and spent a lot of hours helping look for animals, mostly never found or seen again. Done it myself too. Hilar shot, you don’t have to break a leg but it can be a bonus. My 2c. Other’s opinions may vary, each to their own. PS I mostly use 55 grainers but also heavies from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Dama dama

How often has this happened? A .22 centrefire not pentrating a shoulder bone that is. This tread is full of success stories, a lot of which appear to be shoulder shots. To be fair, I would be surprised if even a standard 55gr bullet would not make it through the scapula.

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I've had one failure like this occur out of roughly 40 deer. 75gr eldm hit shoulder joint at 220m on a rutting stag and failed to penetrate vitals. Required follow ups and a track with the dog.

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Originally Posted by mawzer308

I've had one failure like this occur out of roughly 40 deer. 75gr eldm hit shoulder joint at 220m on a rutting stag and failed to penetrate vitals. Required follow ups and a track with the dog.

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If a big red stag with a heavy wet coat they can soak up pills like nothing else. Armour plating got nothing on mother nature at times.

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Originally Posted by mawzer308

I've had one failure like this occur out of roughly 40 deer. 75gr eldm hit shoulder joint at 220m on a rutting stag and failed to penetrate vitals. Required follow ups and a track with the dog.

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Funny you mention this, I had two less than impressive results with the 75grain eldm. Both deer were close (30m and 10m approx). Animals were recovered but the time taken to recover them (without a dog) was enough to make me switch to the 80grain eldm. I haven't had any such issues since switching to the slightly heavier bullet.

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Originally Posted by Calikiwi

Funny you mention this, I had two less than impressive results with the 75grain eldm. Both deer were close (30m and 10m approx). Animals were recovered but the time taken to recover them (without a dog) was enough to make me switch to the 80grain eldm. I haven't had any such issues since switching to the slightly heavier bullet.

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Yes I'm running 80gr eldm now too but funnily enough, the 73gr eldm have been outstanding aswell.

Funnily enough its big rutted up stags that have ALWAYS been said to be maybe step to far for the .224s. Maybe not so silly Afterall.

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Originally Posted by mawzer308

Yes I'm running 80gr eldm now too but funnily enough, the 73gr eldm have been outstanding as well.

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That's cool to hear the 73 grain eldm are going well. Better than the 75's you recon? Any structural differences that you are aware of? I initially used the 75's as I could achieve a much higher muzzle velocity in my .223 than I could with the 80's. Perhaps the 75's were travelling too fast on those closer shots. The two deer mentioned above were sika so not big bodied deer (in case anyone was curious). I shoot the 80gr out of a 22-250 as well and despite it going faster than the 75's did in the 223 I've had no problems so far even at very close ranges. It seems odd that only 5 grains increase in bullet weight would make such a difference....

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Originally Posted by Calikiwi

That's cool to hear the 73 grain eldm are going well. Better than the 75's you recon? Any structural differences that you are aware of? I initially used the 75's as I could achieve a much higher muzzle velocity in my .223 than I could with the 80's. Perhaps the 75's were travelling too fast on those closer shots. The two deer mentioned above were sika so not big bodied deer (in case anyone was curious). I shoot the 80gr out of a 22-250 as well and despite it going faster than the 75's did in the 223 I've had no problems so far even at very close ranges. It seems odd that only 5 grains increase in bullet weight would make such a difference....

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Only real difference is the long ogive of the 75gr really, everything else to my knowledge is the same. One thing to take note of is the sample size for example 1 failure out of 40 odd is pretty good, just an anomaly really. The only reason I went to 73gr, then 80gr was projectile availability then higher BC and accuracy with the 80gr.

Also thought it's important to document less than optimal performance, as people become so enamored with a calibre and aren't willing to admit shortcomings etc.

77grn TMK at 219 yards.
The .223 is so powerful it gutted it and it landed in my pack.

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Attachment 259689

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Originally Posted by mawzer308

Only real difference is the long ogive of the 75gr really, everything else to my knowledge is the same. One thing to take note of is the sample size for example 1 failure out of 40 odd is pretty good, just an anomaly really. The only reason I went to 73gr, then 80gr was projectile availability then higher BC and accuracy with the 80gr.

Also thought it's important to document less than optimal performance, as people become so enamored with a calibre and aren't willing to admit shortcomings etc.

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And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

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Two deer over the weekend.
#1 a solid Fallow spiker at 260 yds . Hit low in the chest a bit far forward with .257R and 100 grn Barnes. Dog flushed it and it ran down hill 50 yards and she bailed it. Lots of life left inspite of a big hole, and I had to shoot it again. Thank you Bella.

#2 a smaller Fallow at 219 yds with the 77TMK. High shoulder shot. Bang flop.

It's about where you hit 'em.

Bella is going great.bailing a woundie...Tilly would be proud mate,her tail will be going flat out watching that.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Bella is going great.bailing a woundie...Tilly would be proud mate,her tail will be going flat out watching that.

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It was a dilemma. Needing to dispatch it as quickly as I could but wanting her to get the idea of what I wanted. Just let her have a couple of barks and lunges and then dispatched it.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Two deer over the weekend.
#1 a solid Fallow spiker at 260 yds . Hit low in the chest a bit far forward with .257R and 100 grn Barnes. Dog flushed it and it ran down hill 50 yards and she bailed it. Lots of life left inspite of a big hole, and I had to shoot it again. Thank you Bella.

#2 a smaller Fallow at 219 yds with the 77TMK. High shoulder shot. Bang flop.

It's about where you hit 'em.

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Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

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Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

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.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

That's my pick for post of the year.

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Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Perfect timing for a question/advice.
A mate is looking to buy his son his first hunting rifle.
He’s a fit 18 year old + 6’ and won’t have recoil fear, within reason.
He’s not a hunter (yet) been out after rabbits & goats once or twice.
Will probably do a lot on his own and with inexperienced mates.
Will not be hand loading.
Will be mostly hunting SI, Canterbury & central Otago.

They’ve asked me for advice, they’re thinking .223 - possibly read these 141 pages of commentary.

Would you start a young fella as described on a .223, or perhaps look for a bit more margin for error?

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Size is relative. Ask a friend[s] to lend a 243 and 223 to see what he likes best. Did this with my mates son. Took a shine to the 223. He kills lotsa reds and fallow. He is aged 15.

Suppressed 243 with limbsaver.... Better in everyway IF shot angle or position or puffed or big,wet,grumpy animal. (This from guy who took the piss out of 243 users for fourty years) You just have more horsepower ...

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

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I did this with a specific bullet from one of my 260s. Swore the bullet off because of performance. After 2 years I looked back at what happened and I couldn’t blame bullet performance. I pulled my shot a few inches too low because I rushed it badly. Bullet hit the humerus bone and penetration lacked to the lower lungs/heart causing a rodeo. I put that buck down quickly with 4 more shots in the ribs as fast as I could from 10 yards away when I caught up to him. He had gone onto the neighbors land and I didn’t want to do any tracking so if it was moving he was getting a bullet until he quit. I’ve since gone back to the bullet and no problems with it because I haven’t shot anything in a bad spot. Funny how that works.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Bella is going great.bailing a woundie...Tilly would be proud mate,her tail will be going flat out watching that.

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

And this is where we need to be acutely aware of our biases (either way). Classic scenario plays out like this:

Hunter shoots a stag with a ‘marginal cartridge’ and it requires a tracking job and a bit of faffing around to retrieve. Hunters mate says- ‘See, I told you (insert name of cartridge) wasn’t powerful enough for deer.

Hunters mate sometime after shoots a deer with his loundenboomer cannon and also requires a tracking job and faffing about to retrieve. Hunters mate says - ‘Man I told you these deer were armour plated!’

Humans are extraordinarily susceptible to confirmation bias. The best way to defeat this is by studying the facts, from breaking the shot through to completion of an autopsy on the animal. As @Tahr shows in many of his posts, if the right .223 bullet gets put in the right place, the job is done.

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To be picky, it's 224 caliber projectile. 222 projectiles are 224 cal too, 223 is name for a certain caliber. Carry on chaps, your up to page 141 and going strong.

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Originally Posted by SmokeyJason

To be picky, it's 224 caliber projectile. 222 projectiles are 224 cal too, 223 is name for a certain caliber. Carry on chaps, your up to page 141 and going strong.

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Cartridge...if you want to be picky. But it seem nearly everyone uses the word 'caliber' when they talk about individual chamberings as opposed to bore diameter.

Indeed.i have three cartridges in .224 calibre,trebly,223 and 22-250 love them all.have shot deer,pigs n wallabies with all three.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

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Thanks Thar, I had similar thoughts. 243 - 308.
As you all know, there are so many variables to getting in a position to take a shot at an animal, and then making a clean kill.
I think a little margin for error due to inexperience-excitement wouldn’t hurt.

Cheers M

Will he reload?

308 with 130gr doing about 2,800fps. Very mild to shoot.

No he won’t load as far as I know, although he’s welcome to use my gear, and if it’s a 308 he eventually gets, I’ll happily knock him up some hand loads.

That’s what I’ve done, I’ve got some mild 130’s and my boys shoot it, but I’d say not well. However they seem confident.
There’s definitely a bit of apprehension there. Whereas the 222, no issues.
My 13 year old has shot a deer with each, the 222 was a beautiful shot; clean kill at 150 with a 55gn.
308 took 2 shots, from much less with a 130 gn.

But the long shot was well set up with a rest, and an unsuspecting deer at first light.
The 308 close shot, was under a light, standing, and it was walking away back to bush edge. So there was a bit of pressure on a quick standing shot, when it stopped and looked back quarter on. Probably not a fair comparison, but that’s my main point, when you have a young hunter in a situation like that they’re more than likely going to take a shot.

Had he made the same two shots with the 222, who knows…

That stainless 308 howa or vanguard that sold the day would be a good starter.

You can buy reduced recoil .308 loads...I've seen it forsale in Ashburton,might have to order it in,but it's a thing,as is the big heavy slow option,but that sort of runs into same slower kill issues.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

.243 would be great. Then he can down scale or up scale later depending on his taste. Although I'm a fan, .223 is not something you just pick up with a box of any old ammo and go hunting with. Takes a bit of thought.

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This sums it up perfectly. The .223 is fantastic in the right hands but it is not a great choice for a newby.

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Originally Posted by zeropak

This sums it up perfectly. The .223 is fantastic in the right hands but it is not a great choice for a newby.

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Amazing how people are fussing over a few milimieters or less of projectile diameter (this whole thread basically) and fail to account for the following:

1. Bullets have improved a lot since the 50/60's when most of these cartridges were designed, sometimes to the extent that barrel twists have yet to catch up on rifles (another reason to buy newer rifles or re-barrel).

2. Scopes and mounting systems are a major factor in rrifle accuracy that is often glossed over.

3. Shot placement is king.

Point 3. means more practice is better. Factory ammo that is cheap and performs well is a benefit as it saves time (and hence money) sourcing components.

223 and 308 will always have the edge of cheap(er) ammo and long barrel life. Also cheaper or at least more readily available rifles. However, most are going for the heavy bullets in 308 which makes it harder to shoot. A 308 with 175/180/200 grain bullets has more recoil than some 'magnums'. Not a good thing for a newer hunter/shooter.

I like the 308 150gr SSTs,you hardly know you pulled the trigger with a suppressor on.