Thread: Commercial vs Recreational Hunting in NZ

There is some healthy discussion that started in another thread that we could carry on here as it is has gone off track regarding the intentions the OP.

Maybe the mods could shift the whole lot from post #11 of GDs NZ Hunter adventures thread here if it is possible and everyone that is involved is happy to do so?









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Good topic and title! This should be a good discussion.

My personal opinion is that there should be no commercial hunting on department of conservation land. I do not like the idea of someone making money off what effectively is not theirs and belongs to all NZ'ers. However I realise that this would impossible to manage as an operator could just tell a client to say that he isn't getting paid if someone pulls them up, or that they are just mates.

I'll use Tahr as an example. I am sure if there is a guide in the Alps and the only shootable bull is an 11" they will probably pull the trigger as they want their client to go home with an animal. Where a recreational hunter would more than likely leave it to grow and look for a bigger one.

I want NZ's deer herds to be managed so that they are healthy for my kids or grand kids. If there is a commercial operation of any sort I don't believe this will happen as 9 times out of 10 the dollar trumps morals. In cases like the wapiti and whitetail on the mainland I would love for there to be no hunting for years or even a decade in the case of the white-tail, and heavy fines for people who breach this. As I am not worried about what hunting is there for me and would sacrifice my hunting for the benefit of the next generation.

......I won't say that I would also love to bring in pure wapiti semen and AI a few cows in the wapiti area as I realise that this is not allowed and very controversial.....

I believe hunting should be available for everyone as long as it's managed effectively. I hate the idea that someone does or doesn't have the same chances at someone else just because of good fortune in where they're born or lack thereof.

I support international opportunities for hunters in Australia and by the same token I want those opportunities in other countries.

Talking diy hunting on public land so probably a separate topic again.

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Isn't the official line that deer are a pest that needs to be eradicated? Obviously not what I think, or what I imagine most people on this forum think, but until deer and other species get "game animal" status (like a bloody duck!) and conserved to some degree, then nothing is going to change. If deer are a pest in legal terms, why would DOC take issue with them being killed by anybody by any means?

Originally Posted by MightyBoosh

Isn't the official line that deer are a pest that needs to be eradicated? Obviously not what I think, or what I imagine most people on this forum think, but until deer and other species get "game animal" status (like a bloody duck!) and conserved to some degree, then nothing is going to change. If deer are a pest in legal terms, why would DOC take issue with them being killed by anybody by any means?

Correct thinking there. The legal description of our introduced deer, TAHR (@R93) and chamois needs to be revised before we can move forward with any type of recreational / conservation plan for their management as a resource.

Originally Posted by Kudu

Good topic and title! This should be a good discussion.

My personal opinion is that there should be no commercial hunting on department of conservation land. I do not like the idea of someone making money off what effectively is not theirs and belongs to all NZ'ers. However I realise that this would impossible to manage as an operator could just tell a client to say that he isn't getting paid if someone pulls them up, or that they are just mates.

I'll use Tahr as an example. I am sure if there is a guide in the Alps and the only shootable bull is an 11" they will probably pull the trigger as they want their client to go home with an animal. Where a recreational hunter would more than likely leave it to grow and look for a bigger one.

I want NZ's deer herds to be managed so that they are healthy for my kids or grand kids. If there is a commercial operation of any sort I don't believe this will happen as 9 times out of 10 the dollar trumps morals. In cases like the wapiti and whitetail on the mainland I would love for there to be no hunting for years or even a decade in the case of the white-tail, and heavy fines for people who breach this. As I am not worried about what hunting is there for me and would sacrifice my hunting for the benefit of the next generation.

......I won't say that I would also love to bring in pure wapiti semen and AI a few cows in the wapiti area as I realise that this is not allowed and very controversial.....

Hunting guides are using public land for commercial gain.
A huge % of tourism ventures are using public land. What is the difference?

I also have to ask if waro is ceased completely how do we manage the animals?
Search and destroy?
Poison?
Government funded hunting?

Please dont say recreational hunting.

Waro can possibly be done sustainably to appease all parties but somewhere along the line someone is going to miss out.

I am all for a change concerning waro but the first thing is to get the animals classed differently to what they are now.







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WARO should be used to manage deer numbers. To manage numbers you need to cull the breeding animals ie hinds. They are the ones that increase numbers. One stag can service a large number of hinds.
Shooting stags will reduce numbers in the short term, but not the long term.
We need to move to a better form of managed WARO, where areas are allocated to a single operator and they can shoot hinds only. They should not be areas easily accesibe by the weekend meat hunter.

Geez and here I was thinking we would both agree on what I wrote @R93.... Just remember what I write is not based on fact, its mostly emotion. And it is only my opinion and if you ask my wife she will confirm that I am usually always wrong.

This thread was just called commercial vs recreational hunting. I have not mentioned or commented on WARO. That is a topic for another thread......

Originally Posted by R93

Hunting guides are using public land for commercial gain.
A huge % of tourism ventures are using public land. What is the difference? I believe the main difference is that deer are a resource and can theoretically be removed 100%. i.e the last one in a herd could be shot. A tourist operator say paying a concession is not removing the resource he is using, unlike shooting a deer. So that is what I believe the difference is. Are you saying you support commercial hunting? even in the case of the mainland whitetail herd?

I also have to ask if waro is ceased completely how do we manage the animals?
Search and destroy?
Poison?
Government funded hunting?

Please dont say recreational hunting.

Waro can possibly be done sustainably to appease all parties but somewhere along the line someone is going to miss out.

I am all for a change concerning waro but the first thing is to get the animals classed differently to what they are now. 100% Agree

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Geez and here I was thinking we would both agree on what I wrote @R93.... Just remember what I write is not based on fact, its mostly emotion. And it is only my opinion and if you ask my wife she will confirm that I am usually always wrong.

This thread was just called commercial vs recreational hunting. I have taken the title of Commercial hunting to mean guides taking paying clients out onto DOC land to shoot deer. I have not mentioned or commented on WARO. That is a topic for another thread......

Originally Posted by R93

Hunting guides are using public land for commercial gain.
A huge % of tourism ventures are using public land. What is the difference? I believe the main difference is that deer are a resource and can theoretically be removed 100%. i.e the last one in a herd could be shot. A tourist operator say paying a concession to use a river for a rafting business is not removing the resource he is using, unlike shooting a deer. And it is there for the next person. So that is what I believe the difference is. And for the purpose of this thread what is your stand on commercial hunting? Like in the case of the mainland whitetail herd?

I also have to ask if waro is ceased completely how do we manage the animals?
Search and destroy?
Poison?
Government funded hunting?

Please dont say recreational hunting.

Waro can possibly be done sustainably to appease all parties but somewhere along the line someone is going to miss out.

I am all for a change concerning waro but the first thing is to get the animals classed differently to what they are now. 100% Agree

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Originally Posted by stug

WARO should be used to manage deer numbers. To manage numbers you need to cull the breeding animals ie hinds. They are the ones that increase numbers. One stag can service a large number of hinds.
Shooting stags will reduce numbers in the short term, but not the long term.
We need to move to a better form of managed WARO, where areas are allocated to a single operator and they can shoot hinds only. They should not be areas easily accesibe by the weekend meat hunter.

Good suggestions but have you seen what happen to the Thar when only nannies are targeted?

Allocating areas to operators and hinds only policy would stop waro in a heartbeat as no one could afford to do it in today's market.

I am not rubbishing your ideas just stating what would happen if it happened today.


I think they should bring back RHAs in force and have them in known trophy areas.
Numbers get monitored and if they get too high, only approved operators are allowed to thin them out.

Have a mandatory punishment if anyone breaches the rules. Not fighting it in court no leniency.

Poach and your waro concession is gone. You would be banned from participating in anyone else's venture or part of their concession. You will never get another.





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Originally Posted by Kudu

Geez and here I was thinking we would both agree on what I wrote @R93.... Just remember what I write is not based on fact, its mostly emotion. And it is only my opinion and if you ask my wife she will confirm that I am usually always wrong.

This thread was just called commercial vs recreational hunting. I have not mentioned or commented on WARO. That is a topic for another thread......

I am not having a go at you @Kudu.
I opened this thread coz I was enjoying the discussion with you.

To be fair I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
I am genuinly interested if you have any answers or solutions.
Sorry if I come across wrong.



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Originally Posted by R93

I am not having a go at you @Kudu.
I opened this thread coz I was enjoying the discussion with you.

To be fair I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
I am genuinly interested if you have any answers or solutions.
Sorry if I come across wrong.
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No its all good. Its a good conversation. I do have answers and solutions. But whether or not anyone agrees or not is another story.....

Basically there is nothing wrong with Commercial Hunting on private land and I have been involved in that industry for a few years.(Not currently) But I am not keen on it, as I have said before happening on DOC land. This is because I have seen the dollar over rule ethics in the past.

1. First the classification of Pest needs to be removed from deer.
2. Then there needs to be areas of interest set aside for herds to flourish. Like the mainland whitetail herd, the wapiti area, certain otago and canterbury areas for example.
3. These areas need to be managed as a private hunter only resource. i.e not commercial, no WARO, no 1080 and with guidelines in place. Like what can be shot, numbers etc. And I am not talking whole national parks, just certain areas so the weekend hunter can go and shoot his couple of spikers for the pot in other parts.
4. This area set aside will help everyone though as the quality of deer improve they will spread to other areas naturally.
5. Since these certain areas will not be huge they can be managed easily for pests etc, which is why 1080 will not be needed.

My fingers hurt now so I can't type anymore....... but the brain is working overtime...lol

Originally Posted by Kudu

No its all good. Its a good conversation. I do have answers and solutions. But whether or not anyone agrees or not is another story.....

Basically there is nothing wrong with Commercial Hunting on private land and I have been involved in that industry for a few years.(Not currently) But I am not keen on it, as I have said before happening on DOC land. This is because I have seen the dollar over rule ethics in the past.

1. First the classification of Pest needs to be removed from deer.
2. Then there needs to be areas of interest set aside for herds to flourish. Like the mainland whitetail herd, the wapiti area, certain otago and canterbury areas for example.
3. These areas need to be managed as a private hunter only resource. i.e not commercial, no WARO, no 1080 and with guidelines in place. Like what can be shot, numbers etc. And I am not talking whole national parks, just certain areas so the weekend hunter can go and shoot his couple of spikers for the pot in other parts.
4. This area set aside will help everyone though as the quality of deer improve they will spread to other areas naturally.
5. Since these certain areas will not be huge they can be managed easily for pests etc, which is why 1080 will not be needed.

My fingers hurt now so I can't type anymore....... but the brain is working overtime...lol

That's what I was after. We are on the same page.

However I am of the opinion and witnessing what happens in areas like this, waro/selective harvesting may have to be allowed if the numbers warrant it.

I would also like the management of these said areas to be separate from the government somehow.






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I reckon the whitetail situation is pretty simple, list them as game and give them protected status. Maybe even create a no hunt zone. Give them time to build up numbers over a decade or two then allow balloted hunting.

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The problem I see in reducing waro operations will only cause poaching. Tough penalties may deter some, those that need the machine running and bringing in deer will be less cooperative with reduced hunting areas and hinds only, the money is in the bigger(stags)animals. The other side of the coin is animal numbers will increase in remote areas and eventually trophy quality will suffer.
Unfortunately the mighty dollar dictates everything in this world today.
Hopefully the Game Council can address a lot of these issues so everyone's interests are taken care of.