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For those of you that are interested...
Donald Trump's regime reverses ban on elephant trophies - NZ Herald
"The Trump administration says it will allow the importation of body parts from African elephants shot for sport, contending that encouraging wealthy big-game hunters to kill them will aid the vulnerable species."
Good to see sanity prevailing over hysteria and sensationalism for a change.
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So who is really responsible for all that shit...TRUMP???.....I think not
Kinda chickshit of me to post the above statement without elaborating.I have a close friend of mine,From Zimbabwe,flew For the Zim Govt,in its protection,surveillance programme.To cut a long story short,as this could be a very interesting debate,he firmly believes,as there are several sides of thought,that the legal and conservation side of this issue in taking this game go hand in hand.The monies garnished from this is in turn stop the biggest issues of poaching.
The poaching issue is what creates an illegal black market ( which will never stop)as Asians ( not being prejudiced here)are the largest purveyors of this product.My mate firmly believes with deeper pockets,the protection of these animals is enhanced due more feet on the ground,drones,aircraft,infra-red etc,watching these animals.
I’m not a blowing Trumps horn here,I’m not sure of the details of this agreement as they are still coming out.But one thing is for sure,controlled hunting ,the money it brings and conservation and management practices in the hands of those who know what they are doing,can’t be a bad thing.As it stands now,these Govts,lack bad,y needed funds.
I understand the arguement that the fees derived from big game hunting fund anti poaching initiatives in Africa but for me there is an obscenity that attaches to killing a magnificent animal and justifying it in the name of protecting its kind. I am not saying don't kill the animal, I am just saying call it what it is (trophy hunting). As to the poachers that feed the demand from Asia for ivory and tiger penis etc, they certainly need to be stopped (shot on sight will do) but more so the demand end of the transaction needs to be tackled as if there was no demand then those involved in the supply end would halt there activities ( basic economics 101).
People who go out in the roar are Trophy Hunters. Looking for the best Stag they can find to hang it's skull and antlers on the wall. A big beautiful red is just as magestic as an elephant. I fail to see the differenceQuote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
A friend of mine recently returned from a hunting trip to Botswana, it is in his opinion is expensive, highly regulated, and necessary for animal welfare.
Where he hunted antelope species and zebra numbers were very high so these were the main targets for paid hunts. Elephant nos were low and were not on the list but were still in other areas not that he was interested (or could afford it).
Interestingly the head guide told him that uncontrolled trophy hunting for apex predators in the last 20 years was responsible for overpopulation.
There are a few skins coming home and a wart hog head which should confuse the pig hunters.
Fair call Rushy and I can see why people are opposed to trophy hunting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy
That said, who are we to sit here in our first world country, shooting whatever we like and justifying it by saying we will eat it or it’s a pest, but vilifying someone who does it in Africa because it is a different animal to what we shoot/eat/farm etc.
As said above, this country is full of trophy hunters chasing stags.
Despite the anti poaching side of it, which is a very valid argument, there is also the matter of making the animals valuable as a commodity to their “owners.”
What is generally not understood is that nearly all hunting in Africa is done on private gamefarms or on concessions which are tribal land and contracted to safari outfits.
Hunting quotas are actively managed in these areas by the farmer (no farmer would ever kill all their stock) or be the outfit who then answers to the tribal council, that are also required to do anti poaching patrols, clear snares, employ tribespeople as game scouts and actively manage the hunting stock.
One of the big responsibilities of the hunting outfits is to manage problem animals that destroy crops and kill tribespeople.
Most of the meat and some of the trophy fees go to the tribe and provide income for infrastructure, food and clean water.
Most animals that are classed as “threatened” like lions and elephants are due to habitat destruction, they are in fact overpopulated in many areas for the land area.
Take away the revenue from hunting, as these are not areas that will be frequented by photo safari clients, and you take away the animals value, they become more valuable as food than as a commodity. That are seen as crop raiding pests and threats and get slaughtered for meat and ivory and protection of livestock, the Bush gets cleared to plant more crops and grow grass to feed livestock.
No patrols mean the bush gets full of snares and thousands of animals die a painful death.
For the gamefarmer this also means a loss of income and he must change his farming practice to crops or livestock, again, habitat destruction which is the main threat to conservation.
Look at Kenya, since they banned hunting, the funds dried up and the poachers moved in, their wildlife has been decimated .
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Good call Rushy,and ditto to paddy.Rushy,last year I was on contract with Airbus,with an Oz mate of mine,we were contracted to deliver Airbus Aircraft to various parts of the world.We delivered 2 Airbus 319,s,one to Harare Zimbabwe,the other to Kampala Uganda.To go all that way and not see the sights and to the Kiwi tiki tour seemed stupid.
We both opted for the Bush tours,through their national parks,an awesome spectacle,by any standards.The subject came up continuously about the horrendous poaching that goes on,and their inability to defend these animals to poachers.The govts,of both countries lacking in money and manpower,and that has since been changing due to the influx of high paying shooting visitors taking “TROPHY”game.Im like you,not interested in taking trophy’s,but the choices are being made,and high dollar trophy hunting is giving these people money to defend these animals,track and sometimes shoot poachers,and provide the nessacery resources to make protection easier,.....the world we now live in,and it’s realities.Paddy makes a great point,with regards to trophy hunters anywhere.
Don't believe for a second that orange oompah loompah has the interests of conservation at heart - he doesn't have the attention span to read any briefing longer than one page....
This is nothing but a distraction for some unpalatable changes or some unpleasant news about to break (think Russia probe? Trump's own Weinstein/Spacey moment...) yet people snap it up like it's top of the offal pit/....
Whatever it may be, it doesn’t change the fact that it is still a step in the right direction for conservation in Africa, despite what the media wants us all to think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickoli
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For the record guys, I am not against trophy hunting despite the fact that I have never been a trophy hunter ( unless you count taking a head shot sparrow to show the old man when I was a kid). My message was simply call it what it is and don't justify it by saying it helps conservation and anti poaching efforts. There is is no need to justify the sort of hunting you want to do. As long as it is legal then no one should give a shit (the bunny loving, tree hugging brigade excepted).
Good on trump his idea or not he,s just flicked the bird to safe,peta animal rights etc what's the point in having some old animals wandering around waiting to get eaten by the lions , in some cases to old to breed makes sense to have some high roller come in and spend a fortune to shoot them, guess the key will be making sure a decent cut of the $ go,s back in to fund conservation ,anti poachers etc & not in some corrupt officials pocket .I see the anti,s are out in force with pictures of baby elephants lol
I tried explaining to the stay at home mums on the Herald page, the benefits bought to Africa by rich hunters, who will harvest game legally while lining the pockets of the locals, and how culling certain animals can be beneficial overall to the herd. Predictably, I was met with the usual media indoctrinated canned outrage. I am all for a rational, evidence based discussion, but sometimes, especially when the neigh sayers have the IQ of a house cat, it is best just to do what you want and tell people to get fucked.
It still irks me that the media call it the Trump "regime", as if he's some dictator who illegitimately stole power through a military coup.
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Was a TedX talk somewhere by a conservationist who praised hunting initiatives in Africa as a necessary evil for the sustainability of the wildlife. Supposedly, as land undergoes development and people and animal territories collide, there is often pressure for rural tribes and communities to kill invasive predators and territorial wildlife in order to save their source(s) of income (crops, farm animals etc). When a price can be put on these animals' heads, however, rather than killing them all off, there is an incentive for them to maintain populations -- as revenue can be generated.
It's all rather sad - but then that's life. All species on this planet (us included), are constantly competing with one another.
I wouldn't mind hunting Africa one day. No Elephants or cats, though. Maybe just a Springbok (they're not as cute...). :D
The thing to remember is that it is only the US (and possibly EU) that has banned the import of trophy hunted elephant. Pretty sure anyone in NZ with the correct paperwork can import an elephant trophy from Africa.
Lol.....take the weekend off mate....Trump is not the subject here,try and get past that....most of us don't give a fuck about trump....the subject of trophy hunting,poaching etc is real,when you have actually seen it,then it hits home.
There’s always politics involved in issues like this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickoli
...as long as it doesn't breach any CITES(?) agreements?Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
Point taken - good conversation, but it really is just a distraction.Quote:
Originally Posted by A330driver
Elephants are on the CITIES agreement, but on a schedule that allows their hunting and export. Zimbabwe gets given a certain number of elephants that can be legally hunted and exported every year. America for some reason does not recognise this CITIES agreement and imposes their own restrictions on importing elephant tusks into USA.
Totally agree mate,and not trying to be an arse here......For years,the yank administrations have always played politics with this issue(and others)its all about money and fronts,....perceived,real or not.This is noth8ng more than Phrump getting back at Obama in his bullshit way,.......but the issue ,the core issue is real,irregardless of the politics,......real people,concerned people,are willing to support management techniques to preserve these animals.
No matter what side of the fence,or argument one supports,it’s about trying to do the “right” thing,and that in itself is up for debate
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickoli
In Zimbabwe 90% of the folk are unemployed, it's no wonder poaching is rife, I read a book recently written by a PH, he said in regards to animals "if it Pays it Stays" meaning game animals that have monetary value will be actively managed & looked after.
Also remember that most areas in Kenya Tanzania and other countries that have parks where once hunting blocks......Serengeti, Masi Mara to name a couple.
If it wasn't for hunting those parks would not be there today....oh and you can also thank that fly:O_O:
Trump has postponed the removal of the ivory import ban, probably will not remove the ban is the feeling people have on a few other forums.
Americans will still be allowed to hunt elephant in Africa, just not bring the ivory back to America.
for those who remeber the australian hunting mag with nick harvey & col allison writng .Col for years had a leopard trophy here in NZ that he couldnt bring into aussie due to CITIES ,and he frequently mentioned this in his articles on african safaris
.Another one i remember was a guide hed just finished hunting with being gored to death by an elephant cow ,who it seemed was having one of those"i dont like fuck all days"and latched onto a human target.
for a real humorous take (way way beyond anything mrs trumps wee carrot top donny could utter) ,try Peter Hathaway Capsticks "death in the long grass"
Mr capstick devotes a whole chapter to jumbos psycopathic initiatives toward the smokestick bearing minute lumps of vertical DNA which invade his patchand how jumbo creatively can remodel you so "even your dear old mumwouldnt know if youre lying face up or down in the casket.shell definitely think youve put on weight -probably due to the copious quantities of dirt jumbo added to you as he grinds you into the dirt before attempting a goal by hurling you over a tree or three!".
all makes for jolly good bedtime reading does that!
harsh as it maybe -in a way a trophy hunters humane dispatch is more preferable to the searing pain and madness of a primitve natives snare spears or sprays of AK47 military ammo and the final indignity of lions tearing you apart as you breathe your last in a lingering haze of slow death.
Simply put paddy, and I'm not trying to start an argument but a red stag magnificent or not, is classed as a pest in New Zealand and is not a threatened species.........especially when I shoot at them.......:ORLY:Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy79
Elephants are not threatened in these areas, in fact they have organised culls to take pressure off the local villages etc. If these organised hunts don't happen, the local authorities often simply don't get paid (sometimes for months and months) and turn poacher to pay their way. First thing they go for are valuable stuff - pretty pelts and rhino horn etc, the chinese ask no questions. Simply put: No paid hunts, it all comes crashing down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scouser
Imagine if you HAD to pay to hunt a dirty sika here in NZ
:D ...plenty of "trophy hunters" do :XD:Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy79
NZ is in a very unusual situation worldwide with our hunting. In most countries hunting is very regulated with licences and seasons.
Kenya banned hunting sometime ago, their animal numbers have declined. South Africa have embraced trophy hunting and game ranching, their animal numbers have increased several fold.
In America at the turn of the century their animal numbers were in decline, through taxes on ammo and sporting goods going to wildlife management and licences and strick seasons their animal numbers have increased.
The thing about elephants is that they destroy their habitat. Elephants kill trees when they feed on them and open the bush up. This isn't a problem when they can wander over vast areas. By the time they come back the forest has recovered. By restricting them to national parks, unless their numbers are controlled they will turn it into a desert.
By having hunting areas outside of national parks the habitat is extended and animal numbers increase.
In Zimbabwe the CAMPFIRE program sees trophy fees and meat going back to local villages for schools etc and food. The locals see the value of animals.
With no hunting their are no trophy fees and the locals only see wildlife as something eating their crops or competing with their livestock.
and we in NZ don't exactly have any native mammals so all mammals are a pest that MUST be shot :thumbsup:
This is not about elephants, but does explain the issues of lion conservation in Africa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiyQvm9d4tM