Forest & Bird v The Wapiti Herd

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Originally Posted by No.3

The Sika Foundation man did a chat at BoP NZDA meeting last Tues - they are apparently looking longer term at getting Sika into the HOSI setup as well. There was talk that if the legal action went ahead with the Wap herd that Sika would be next so it's a positive move I think (as long as it doesn't result in more animosity and more potshots at deer management in the future).

One thing that needs to be noted, is that on the face of it F&B actually have a fair point about the legality of the current management setup - it isn't right and it does need sorting as an adhoc management structure with no legal foundation or protection just doesn't work in this era.

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Fuck That!!! DOC says were going to 1080 this bit or that bit Sika foundation then has to choose a spot to 1080 - easy scenario to envisage

watched an 1hr long speak cam speedy gave at a deer stalkers club and the whole to many hinds doesn't ring true where ive hunted sika and the ideal number is 2 or 3 hinds to 1 stag how do you achieve this? yup only by culling :redbullsmiley:

From his profile page
"His training and work experience over the past 30 years through Massey University :wtfsmilie:, New Zealand Forest Service , Department of Conservation :wtfsmilie:
and in the private and corporate sectors has given him a wealth of knowledge and practical experience."
so greenie in a different suit

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Originally Posted by Carbine

Fuck That!!! DOC says were going to 1080 this bit or that bit Sika foundation then has to choose a spot to 1080 - easy scenario to envisage

watched an 1hr long speak cam speedy gave at a deer stalkers club and the whole to many hinds doesn't ring true where ive hunted sika and the ideal number is 2 or 3 hinds to 1 stag how do you achieve this? yup only by culling :redbullsmiley:

From his profile page
"His training and work experience over the past 30 years through Massey University :wtfsmilie:, New Zealand Forest Service , Department of Conservation :wtfsmilie:
and in the private and corporate sectors has given him a wealth of knowledge and practical experience."
so greenie in a different suit

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Cam speaks way more sense than you.
He talks as a ecologist, scientist, and a hunter.
He sees situations for what they are, has scientific evidence to back up his comments, and doesn't have blinkers on.

I will never trust twig n tweet. I think they will still hold the threat to waps and other herds just waiting for a weakness. International concern is our great ally in this dirty game.

7mmwsm you are right - as hunters we should not fear culling of deer numbers - DOC have stated many times and on their web site they will not use 1080 to control deer numbers -so it will be Contract hunters and helicopter shoot to kill - now they dont have a big budget so I believe it will be somewhat limited and focused on high priority areas - recreational hunters cannot control the high deer numbers we have thats fact - we are day dreaming if we think that - but we can try to get hunters a better deal to see if that lifts hunter success - better access - better hunter education - and no bountys tails some payment to rec hunters a complete waste of money and DOC know it - simply not going to happen - a meat / pet food industry so hunters can sell deer would be a help - but guys and girls we have the best hunting now than we have ever had - if you had tried in the seventies in the height of the helicopter days deer were damn hard to find - get out there and enjoy

As far as I am aware, the Erma review and subsequent HSNO regulations forbid the use of 1080 poison to target deer.

So use deer repellent on every bit of that green shit then - oh wait they dont and never will because of the dangers of possums :D and the benefit of its decimating all the deer and everything else it affects

Good write up in today’s ODT on this matter.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Cam speaks way more sense than you.
He talks as a ecologist, scientist, and a hunter.
He sees situations for what they are, has scientific evidence to back up his comments, and doesn't have blinkers on.

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They do awesome work in regard's to the whio recovery and stoat traps and have always rebaited the boxes where needed and cleared rats / stoats as needed while out there hunting but that's where the respect ends

why do we need the sika foundation to control anything they aren't the wapiti herd with Fiordland's location limitations etc,
what if they turn kaimanawa, kawekas's into ballot block during the roar to help grow more/bigger stags something an ex DOC clown would do :cave:(my opinion obviously)

Answer me this then what the hell will they do to benefit the sika herd, all they can/say in speech's is shoot more hinds to grow bigger stags so
who does that when the roars on everyone's there too down stags, because big stags are on the cards not just meat animals. All they will do is cull animals
to lower the numbers because that is ALL they can do, if not then explain to the class what else they can / will do. Easier to insult people then prove a point aye!!

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Originally Posted by Carbine

They do awesome work in regard's to the whio recovery and stoat traps and have always rebaited the boxes where needed and cleared rats / stoats as needed while out there hunting but that's where the respect ends

why do we need the sika foundation to control anything they aren't the wapiti herd with Fiordland's location limitations etc,
what if they turn kaimanawa, kawekas's into ballot block during the roar to help grow more/bigger stags something an ex DOC clown would do :cave:(my opinion obviously)

Answer me this then what the hell will they do to benefit the sika herd, all they can/say in speech's is shoot more hinds to grow bigger stags so
who does that when the roars on everyone's there too down stags, because big stags are on the cards not just meat animals. All they will do is cull animals
to lower the numbers because that is ALL they can do, if not then explain to the class what else they can / will do. Easier to insult people then prove a point aye!!

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Go and read the data Cam has published. You should find explanations to your points there.
If you want to find them that is.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Go and read the data Cam has published. You should find explanations to your points there.
If you want to find them that is.

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Blown away with the accurate logical and sound point's you just make in your reply mate, maybe you just might want to do the same and again easier to insult people then prove your point :smash:

My brilliant bit of logic.
Didn't they bring in(somebody did)calicivirus, cwd should work, someone will think of that.

Anyway good to see forest and bird drop they BS again wapiti foundation, was hoping it would go to court give us all an idea of the crap that's going on we dont/wont hear about

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Originally Posted by Carbine

So use deer repellent on every bit of that green shit then - oh wait they dont and never will because of the dangers of possums :D and the benefit of its decimating all the deer and everything else it affects

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I dont understand the link you have made between repellent and possums?

I dont know the percentage of 1080 that has repellent added but when lobbied for it is used quite often. Some deer herds in the NI are thriving where repellent is used (e.g.the Haurangis). It is very effective. Its not used as often as hunters would like mainly because of the cost, albeit that I'm sure that the authorities that use 1080 without repellent don't cry them selves to sleep because of the deer by-kill.

Ive listened to Cam Speedy speak at meetings a couple of times and have followed his career and writing since his early DOC years. I have never heard a coherent argument that contradicts what he has to say about the management of the Sika herd. If there is one I would like to be directed to it for my own information.

Having known Cam for a long time since his NZFS days, he is talking about Game Management for the Sika herd and preaches it. CARBINE comments about people shooting stags during the roar which is their main objective - I also hunt stags for the roar and forget about the hinds this time of year as not my target species at this time. But you now have many hunters continuing to target stags in the velvet - stripping the velvet to say they got a trophy well outside the roar period - then use artificial colouring to enhance what wasn't quite the animal they actually shot - just look at Youtube. Hinds are rarely targeted nowadays on public land as many hunters seem to want antler - spiker and better? Go figure.

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Originally Posted by Hunteast

Having known Cam for a long time since his NZFS days, he is talking about Game Management for the Sika herd and preaches it. CARBINE comments about people shooting stags during the roar which is their main objective - I also hunt stags for the roar and forget about the hinds this time of year as not my target species at this time. But you now have many hunters continuing to target stags in the velvet - stripping the velvet to say they got a trophy well outside the roar period - then use artificial colouring to enhance what wasn't quite the animal they actually shot - just look at Youtube. Hinds are rarely targeted nowadays on public land as many hunters seem to want antler - spiker and better? Go figure.

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what makes you say that hinds aren't targeted? The only people I know who target stags are the good hunters. Most of the ones I know shoot every deer they see or at least try to.

Have a bit of a look at the Sika foundation's data - in short the reason they are saying take out more hinds is there are too many animals in most areas for the available feed to support so the animals are in rubbish condition and the vegetation is getting hammered. Taking out hinds is the surest means of population control, one hind this year is three animals in two years etc etc. The figures and research supports this opinion but its easiest to get it from the source.

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Originally Posted by Carbine

Blown away with the accurate logical and sound point's you just make in your reply mate, maybe you just might want to do the same and again easier to insult people then prove your point :smash:

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It appeaers that you have a definite dislike for the Sika Foundation, or someone particular involved with it.
Have you had any actual involvement with them?

just a heads up .if this nicola toki is who I think she is -definitely not one to turn ones back on!

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Originally Posted by kotuku

just a heads up .if this nicola toki is who I think she is -definitely not one to turn ones back on!

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Was Vallance.
And yes, all full of smiles now but likely trying to save face until next time.

A lot of international donors to twig n tweet would be disgusted at this further attempt to exterminate our game animals IMO. I also feel NZDA and GAC would do well to seek finacial support from offshore hunting groups because twig n tweet will keep pushing the anti intriduced game animals and gamebirds barrow with fanatical zeal if allowed by hunter complacency.

SCI do a lot more than most hunters realise in situations like this.

Unfortunately this is the world in which you are entering. Not much about data and science. 50% lawyers/lawsuits, 50% bleeding hearts on social media.
You might say that I’ve seen the future :/

It is worthwhile noting that the legal challenge to the FWF/DOC management agreement is actually quite correct and I have heard it explained that very likely the judicial review would find in favour of F&B as the current arrangement isn't supported by legislation.

Having said that, the probable outcome from the judicial review would be no management while an adhoc arrangement was put in place as DOC doesn't seem to have any spare funding to start a control program from scratch and won't be getting any in this economy. I suspect that that is one of the driving forces behind the pause - as some control is better than none. As well as a complete stop on management the resulting structure and agreement from DOC's end to get control and management restarted would be thrown together in haste and likely F&B have decided it would be better to be in at that table rather than having a pissup at a pub down the road 'celebrating' a hollow win.

It's a reality moment rather than an end of proceedings but this does need to be sorted properly.

I wonder if the powers that be have told F&B that if they persist with it then it will be made a Herd of Special Interest and they won’t get any input into it?

That was the suggestion that I heard, and done at an emergency speed thing as well which would I guess mean a fairly simple declaration in compliance with the relevant legislation and empowering someone to run the management with a review date to allow more detail to be fleshed out later. In other words, not what a right-minded conversation I mean conservation charity would want haha.

I see that F&B are going for a grant via 'My giving circle'. At the moment they are third and NZDA have managed to get to second. Fun to try and stick it to F&B after their latest BS. Chuck a vote on.

https://mygivingcircle.org/new-zeala...nts-trust/vote

This is an interesting idea. He has loads of great prizes, entry is for those that have donated at least $15 to FWF.
I believe it close in a week.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh0pHQB3Tgs