I guess I'd do it commercially, and leave DOC out of it
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I can't ever recall having shot an animal in the chest for fun. For food yes but for fun no!
You can't argue with that, how about you back up some of your claims?
The press doesn't really bother with anti-fluoride and anti-vaccine brigade anymore because the evidence is clear and their pseudo-science does stack up to criticism, anti-1080 is the same, nothing to do with political pressure to support a tiny industry.
I'm not having a go, deer stalking, goat shooting etc is all enjoyable/fun to hunters. It's usually cheaper to go and buy meat which has been prepared in a more humane manner, especially when you factor in your time, yet we still decide to hunt.
I'm just playing the devils advocate, I'm not saying we shouldn't hunt.
:fighting:
:D
Now come on Tahr. The NZ Fur industry has been suppressed for decades. Alternative schemes for dealing with possums in particular have been mooted including at the ERMA review, the Ulva island brodifacoum poisoning debacle, forest parks, exotic forests and farms.
Common typical spin emanating from the Animal Health Board and DoC and even some complicit Regional Councils have made media claims repeatedly that 1080 is only used in REMOTE RUGGED AND INACCESSIBLE AREAS,, and we all know what bullshit this really is.
So don't try to tell us that money and research magically suddenly appearing is actually going to happen and that all the ills of past desecration of the forests by 1080 are going to go away. Cripes, they're safeguarding themselves with a 34 year (at least) buffer before being called to account. How very convenient after 50 plus years of failure and spin!.
Those of us who have been advocating for decades to have exactly that (funding and research provided and directed at using systems other than 1080) happen are for very good reason now skeptical of such comment. How come our brave innovative government is only going to contribute a fraction of what funding is required while at the same time going to continue providing over a hundred million per year to the existing failures in DoC and OSPRI?
I note that the NZ Fur Council recently offered their support to trap possums rats and stoats AGAIN, and AGAIN, asking for more allocation of DoC administered land to operate trappers in. Will DoC and OSPRI again stand in their way I wonder?
I've seen possums in the Auckland CBD, and strolling casually across the Auckland International Airport carpark, right outside the terminal. Are they going to 1080 urban areas to get them?
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Missing words from previous statements: Gravy-train, conspiracy, duplicate, lies, Graff :)
I'm happy to back the future vision rather than be swayed by the disaffected of the past. Truth is, the announcements on this have said that all current effective methodologies will be applied, plus new innovations arising from research. Call me mad or naive, scoff at me, but I'm not knocking it. Probably because I have no vested interest save for the preservation to the greatest extent of our biodiversity. And, I don't give a shit about the politics.
Missing words from previous statements: Gravy-train, conspiracy, duplicate, lies, Graff
Shame on you Tahr. Somebody get out the big white hanky and the violins please
I'm happy to back the future vision rather than be swayed by the disaffected of the past. Truth is, the announcements on this have said that all current effective methodologies will be applied, plus new innovations arising from research. Call me mad or naive, scoff at me, but I'm not knocking it. Probably because I have no vested interest save for the preservation to the greatest extent of our biodiversity. And, I don't give a shit about the politics.
White Hanky??!! Surely you are not surrendering already Woody? :)
yet nothing in what mr 243 (who you are replying to) said was actually unproven.
Undoubtedly you admire fed farmers, its very obvious. Im pretty sure this topic qualifies as politics and those who want to further restate their hard wired positions may go elsewhere? Anyone with an open mind can see who is and who isnt buying the bullshit.
One thing i have learnt dealing with pro 1080 supporters, Esp people that admire Forest and Bird ;) is not to waste my time going into in depth arguements with them as no matter what you say, or evidence you show they never going to change their stance but only shoot you down using crap thats been brain washed into them from the DOC spin doctors. The only thing im going to comment on from the admirer of FEd Farmers and F&B concerning my earlier statement is it may well be unproven on here, but its certainly not un proven. Theres plenty of evidence out there, but like i said, you not going to believe anything that goes against your opinion so not wasting my time.
The difference with DOC and F&B etc thou is that its proven that the so called facts and figures they constantly bleat out concerning the 1080 industry is either B/S, Pulled out of thin air or they really have no idea.
They have mis lead, deceived , told lies and hid and suppressed the truth for years to the public and thats the facts.
So whose likely talking Bs and clap trap? Not the people against wipe spread posion drops thats for sure in the most part compared to the spin doctor crap that DOc and others bleat out
243 I like you last two paragraphs, it's hard to believe people's naivety! :thumbsup:
Unfortunately it is very easy to brainwash a nation with propaganda.
Fortunatly tho we live in a country where we can still disagree with it while in many others you would be in big do do for suggesting the big man has a silly haircut.
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I'm betting you don't go into depth because you don't have the ability to, your arguments don't stand up to simple challenges. If there's plenty of credible evidence out there then why aren't you putting it up?
I think you suffer from a serious case of conformation bias. You really need to stop using the word 'fact' or 'facts' when you can't back it up, just because you believe it's fact doesn't make it so. If you're going to accuse F&B, DOC, the Government etc of corruption, lying, suppressing truth etc then you better be able to back it up because logic isn't ruling in your favour.
You're argument requires a lot of assumptions:
-1080 does more harm than good.
-The Government is corrupt.
-DOC is corrupt
-F&B is corrupt
-All peer reviewed studies re the use of 1080 have been conducted by corrupted scientists and reviewed by more corrupt scientists.
-All of the above people would risk their careers and livelihood to support 1080 when even a bunch of hunters can clearly see it does more harm than good.
-1080 industry is worth billions upon billions of dollars to fund the corruption.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To say that 1080 works isn't an extraordinary claim, but there is still an extraordinary amount of evidence to back it up.
It's not perfect, far from it, but it's the best we've got.
The above people risk their careers and livelihood to stand 'against' 1080. Scientists have got gag orders on them...'go against the grain and see u'...no job amongst the govt scientific community again. If you think it's the 'best' option ...you're dreaming...speaking from first hand experience here...
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For a professional person, your lack of objectivity sometimes surprises me.
Yes, I have been a member of FFNZ for 45 years. I was also the contracted National Project Manager who led their restructure circa 1998. I do not support FFNZ on the basis of their politics, in fact often times I think that they are way off the page and incorrect. You might recall that FFNZ worked very hard to discredit global warming; I thought that was plain dumb in the face of the evidence.
Why I admire FFNZ is because they achieve significant gains for their members through being organised and in the main backing up what they say with great research. I admire them as an effective lobbying organisation that has got their shit together. The same for F&B. Admiring their effectiveness should not make me an enemy of the state. I wish that hunters' could lobby as effectively.
I'm open minded and can be convinced of anything, but it needs to be through a rational argument based on research or facts that can be relied on. I am not pro 1080. I am not pro government. I am pro where the best outcomes come from with the least down side.
Mr deer243, I think that your approach to advocacy represents the worst of the worst. I can't agree or disagree with you really, because your rhetoric lacks any coherent substance.
Your opinion on M Barry and the current government are well known, hence your hard wired postion here. How else does anyone with an actual brain otherwise agree that eradicating rats stoats and possums is an achievable aim in the next 30-40 years? Its political spin, not based in reality.
Ospri was caught making untrue statements, DoC does so at will (tararua deer numbers, "recreational" AATH? etc etc etc), 243 is quite justified in what he is saying. Its a typical political tactic to discredit any questioning as implying a conspiracy and its boring and blinkered.
Perhaps iti s your inability to actually recognise subjective thought that has prevented you becoming a professional -like myself as you noted.
My opinion on Maggie Barry is this; I always liked the way she looked at me when she did the garden show on TV. I think that she fancied me. Otherwise, I just think that she is another politician who doesn't fully understand her portfolio and that her close advisors are not much better. Fortunately the policies that she promotes have been built up by knowledgable and qualified people who are probably not that close to her. These are people who you likely despise called the "bureaucrats".
I was a former National Party electorate chairman. Last election I voted for Labour.
I'm a member of the Lower NI Red Deer foundation, and a donator. We currently have a court action against DOC filed. Have you donated?
I have never said that with the current knowledge and methodology the eradication of pests is achievable. In any time frame. I have said that it is a laudable vision that will take R&D funding and new and different methodologies to realise the vision. I live for the day that 1080 is no longer in our armoury.
In regards to professionalism, you are guessing, and I think that you might be somewhat surprised.
More likely bored. As ever these debates become semantic.
The bastards have to be kept honest unfortunately and that doesnt happen by believing the spin and bullshit.
Sit tight boys and girls. There is some very good info to be released shortly.
In the meantime pay attention to certain Tasmanian foxes and the people associated both there and here.
Tahr, me old mate, I was offering the big white hanky to you and I was going to play the violin. An eventual farewell dirge to the green rain and the bureaucracies that feed off it. :)
This thread is going well guys :D
OK its snowing so you can suffer through another post.
As far as donating for the Tararua deer thing - if you were a real conservationist you wouldnt take DOC to court and take valuable money from their limited budget would you? Hypothetically speaking.
Isnt it true that we are all hypocrites and that those on here who preach the conservation benefits to 1080 (of which there are many in the right circumstances but also so some much denied problems) are happy to be not so conservation minded when their self interest is involved? Like grumbling about the kaweka drop specifically or the above court situation? Its flawed to take the mainstream 1080 net benefit spin position.
Id say real questions have to be asked of 1080 use constantly, is it ok to kill 13% of kea in the south island with every drop? By the way, where are the okarito study results, where have they gone? I dont think its ok to destroy a species becuase its politically expedient to do it. Rock wrens? Is that OK?
The right position is to not trust DoC and not repeat their spin as fact.
Ive met and worked with some really nice people in DoC at the ground level and ive seen some evidence of real rot in the system higher up - OK'ing the snowdon monorail until overuled, lying and omission of 1080 "facts", pushing for helihunting the list goes on so I say stick it to them in court they certainly cant be trusted and that certainly goes for their poison position. You have my support for the case but not yet my money.
I hope it's possible to get rid of predators but I don't hold much hope.
I don't have a particularly like or dislike for 1080... I's just another poison. I do think airdrops are cheap, that is what DOC say on their website. I also think that there IS plenty of by-kill, some of it native and some non, I have seen it while out after drops. I don't really believe that there is some sort of corruption or conspiracy, well I haven't seen the evidence BUT I do believe there is some serious dogma (on both sides). For all the time they have been dropping 1080 they are just starting to admit there might be a problem with the Kea? It would be sad if one of my favorite bird was helped into extinction by aerial poison drops. Cant they make an exception and use ground methods in their habitats? But I think the ramifications of accepting the by-kill issue would cost so many millions in changing to Kea safe methods and would be effectively an admission of by-kill issues that would have huge political ramifications.
I just say be very careful about believing everything scientists (or Lobbyists) say as: 1. they are wrong sometimes. 2. someone pays their wages 3. there is way too much politics mixed up in this one.
Some of the new technologies are great such as Spitfire (automatic application trap) which you can leave in the bush for a year and will kill 100 animals (so they say). I hope they do spend money on these technologies and use them as a way out of aerial drops.
I just don't trust Politicians especially ones with grandiose projects they with no details of how they are going to deliver.
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Oh the irony.
While they chuck 1080 at them in mid winter. :wtfsmilie:
SEEMS IVE HEARD THIS BEFORE RABBITS DEER WILD PIGS wasps:DQuote:
Government reveals conservation project with aim to be predator free by 2050 - National - NZ Herald News
how you gonna iradicate rats when your constantly providing perfect habitat and feeding area,s for them
ie towns cities the newly to be massively enlarged auckland:O_O:
mm possum contraception for instance shit we cant even get teenagers to fuckin use it but possums no sweat;)Quote:
, plus new innovations arising from research
Well you start off by forcing people to register and chip their cats. ( Zealandia fans inside Wellington Council have been quick off the mark here! )
The collection of fees creates and justifies yet another wasteful and unjustifiable and unnecessary bureaucracy. This will spread through the main centres and then into the smaller district councils.
The surplus from the fees imposed can be channeled back into the great rat eradication company as "public input".
A surreptitious way of increasing taxes, reducing freedoms and increasing the amount of poison chucked around the place.
The tourism philanthropic investors will still get "clean green" imagery and media hype to help promote their incoming investments.
The National government steal some of the looney green vote help them to keep power without needing other MRP parties.
:wtfsmilie: