Herd management and Playing our part

A private conversation thread prompted me to put this forward and to help keep it at the forefront of our hunting and gathering lifestyles.

The short discussion involved shooting a stag that was carrying a large number of hinds. The first response was “I hope you shot some hinds”. The answer “Yes, shot three and gave them to the farmer”
This follows on from a deep and meaningful late night hut conversation, over a few straight vodkas, with a older Canadian gentleman I had taken on a hunting trip into the Doon in the late eighties.
He was lamenting the downturn in trophy head quality despite good animal numbers. I put it to him that maybe they need to start culling hinds and saving some of the better bucks for the future.
Having come out of the deer recovery industry in a small way, hinds were considered sacrosanct and deer numbers were low but I had seen the ravages of high deer numbers and with an established population and no management, numbers would escalate with poor quality outcomes both in trophy potential and having a reasonable population size to sustain our need to keep the freezer full. This was where my thinking was heading to back then.

It’s the latter that’s the current issue. I’m as much at fault in this as many others and it stems from our desire to utilise what we shoot and not be wasteful. I abhor killing for the sake of killing and hate waste even more but put that aside when it comes to reducing pest populations such as magpies, rabbits, goats etc. We need to carry that over to deer as well.

I’m very fortunate to have secured a top class trophy Red back in the nineties when it was very difficult to do so and one that I will probably never beat given it’s unique character and size so not a big motivator for me these days. From now, I will make a point of only taking red hinds for meat and shooting any I see. It won’t be big numbers but a few by all of us will make a difference for the future.

Cheers all and have at it with your thoughts.

this is really being pushed as of late...I guess tharmageddon has been a bit of a wake up call for us all...control numbers or it will be taken from our hands.
looking back over my kills from last 20 years,it is hind heavy,Im a bush hobbit at heart and it just works out that way. about to head out for roar hunt,if a hind is in front of me it will be interesting what I end up doing.my wife gives me shit about "looking at pretty antlers" due to leaving velvet stags to grow bigger and not shooting them for her to eat......
Im at stage of life where shooting large fawn is better than large stag,I can carry all meat out and it tastes great.
there is still protectionism going on from private land alongside DOC controlled blocks,heck I even got accused of poaching 1km plus outside of block across river and up through gorsey hillside...WHF would a fella bother doing that for??? I had spent pleasant day mousing around in thick bush with dog...its our happy place,a deer is a bonus.
talking to local chap last week it seems a certain landholder has gone all voodoo on anyone hunting alongside his block,the police seem to be on speedial for him,and they respond too....pity the copper I DEALT WITH didnt take 2 seconds to actually consider logistics of getting from where person was sighted to where we stood having discussion in the time frame involved.....
an encounter like that tends to make me reluctant to go back to area to hunt....typeing that explains my procrastinating now,I have all next week off yet struggling for motivation to get ready and head out door.

Thanks for posting this @Sidetrack. It's helpful to read. I'm soon to get back into hunting after 15 years away (and then almost 2 yrs getting licensed again). I have no real desire to hang a set of antlers on my wall. If a good head popped up, there's little doubt I'd have a crack, but hunting for food and just getting out into the bush are the main drivers for me. I'm the same with killing for the sake of it - previously limited to small furry fuckers as part of pest control.

On the topic of managing numbers, I get that rec. hunters have to do their part to get populations under control, or the whirly birds come in spitting lead. However, one question I have is how do we record the impact we're having? We hunt the same land as choppers, so there is no way of saying to the powers that be that we as a group are having an impact unless we record the numbers we are taking out of areas. Would it be feasible to take a similar approach to the glory days, and hand in tails to the local DOC office as proof of numbers? Otherwise I feel we might be pissing into the wind a little if we want to be considered as part of the solution, and remain relevant. Dunno. Data is power.

@MickyDuck, sounds like a recorded gps track might be helpful to show to your local orrificer where exactly you have been. Bush might make it a little less accurate, but would be within hundreds rather than thousands of metres. NZMaps app records your track. Costs $12 a year to have that feature, and is a but more battery hungry, but would certainly be rather farking satisfying showing old mate that he's full of shite. To be fair to him though, there is precedent of hobbits venturing far beyond their preferred habitat...

I watched an NZ hunting vid a few days where they had to "cull a few stinkies" to do their part in game management. The goats were in a few mobs of half a dozen or so, as were the fallow deer. But of course; the deer were sacrosanct.... Surely they should have culled a few deer and just left them there like they did the goats?

Genetics makes the biggest difference to antlers. Stags are no better fed on farms today than what they were twenty years ago and yet SCI scores have gone from 500 inches to 900 now. There are very few really good wild trophy heads and these should be left alone and not shot. Shooting them out lowers the genetic potential of the herd because those genetics are not replaced by better feeding of the remaining deer, they are gone. Crap heads breed crap heads and no amount of feed will make that up. Antler has a heritability factor of 40% which is very high and means that only three crosses of good blood are needed to change a herd.
Take a look at the first head in the following link :https://www.pointssouth.co.nz/blogs/...s-up-with-waro
This is the best Rakia blood head I have ever seen and it is a travesty that the animal was removed from the herd. Perfect lower tynes framed by massive treys and clean straight beams into the tops. This is a one in five thousand stags. If we see a head like this I think we should leave it. Photograph it and put a couple of shots in the dirt beside him and make him more careful.

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Originally Posted by yeah_na_missed

Thanks for posting this @Sidetrack. It's helpful to read. I'm soon to get back into hunting after 15 years away (and then almost 2 yrs getting licensed again). I have no real desire to hang a set of antlers on my wall. If a good head popped up, there's little doubt I'd have a crack, but hunting for food and just getting out into the bush are the main drivers for me. I'm the same with killing for the sake of it - previously limited to small furry fuckers as part of pest control.

On the topic of managing numbers, I get that rec. hunters have to do their part to get populations under control, or the whirly birds come in spitting lead. However, one question I have is how do we record the impact we're having? We hunt the same land as choppers, so there is no way of saying to the powers that be that we as a group are having an impact unless we record the numbers we are taking out of areas. Would it be feasible to take a similar approach to the glory days, and hand in tails to the local DOC office as proof of numbers? Otherwise I feel we might be pissing into the wind a little if we want to be considered as part of the solution, and remain relevant. Dunno. Data is power.

@MickyDuck, sounds like a recorded gps track might be helpful to show to your local orrificer where exactly you have been. Bush might make it a little less accurate, but would be within hundreds rather than thousands of metres. NZMaps app records your track. Costs $12 a year to have that feature, and is a but more battery hungry, but would certainly be rather farking satisfying showing old mate that he's full of shite. To be fair to him though, there is precedent of hobbits venturing far beyond their preferred habitat...

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I purchased a updated GPS soon afterwards for just that very reason.....

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Genetics makes the biggest difference to antlers. Stags are no better fed on farms today than what they were twenty years ago and yet SCI scores have gone from 500 inches to 900 now. There are very few really good wild trophy heads and these should be left alone and not shot. Shooting them out lowers the genetic potential of the herd because those genetics are not replaced by better feeding of the remaining deer, they are gone. Crap heads breed crap heads and no amount of feed will make that up. Antler has a heritability factor of 40% which is very high and means that only three crosses of good blood are needed to change a herd.
Take a look at the first head in the following link :https://www.pointssouth.co.nz/blogs/...s-up-with-waro
This is the best Rakia blood head I have ever seen and it is a travesty that the animal was removed from the herd. Perfect lower tynes framed by massive treys and clean straight beams into the tops. This is a one in five thousand stags. If we see a head like this I think we should leave it. Photograph it and put a couple of shots in the dirt beside him and make him more careful.

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to some extent I agree...and to some,not so much....its borderline criminal for that to be shot via chopper for venison market and the head ground up for horn candy. if any foot hunter saw that stag,it would be shot and carried out.trophy of a lifetime.... now hunting stags post roar gives then chance to root and pass on genes,shooting them in velvet and stripping antlers does not...to me it is just about as senseless as stag hanging on strop under chopper or rotting in creek from poison.
but we all want to hunt roaring stags,for the thril of the chase ...at some point in our hunting it becomes the be all and end all,some stick with it,others dont. IM rather ho hum about it now.Ive shot some good stags but wont pass up another if find one. I will carry what meat I can. I wont kill myself doing so,thats silly,but if I brought out no meat,my Mrs would kick me out to sleep on street.
in some ways shooting hinds is even more playing gamble as cant see how good of genetics they carry... but yip they taste better.
when private blocks next door are locked up,there will always be deer migrating/moving back n forwards in and out of blocks,the riverbed areas are holding quite a few too,escapees and there multigenerational off spring.

The attitude of leave the hinds is quite strongly entrenched with many though.
Personally I shoot hinds in preference to stags better eating and the numbers definitly do need to be controlled.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

The attitude of leave the hinds is quite strongly entrenched with many though.
Personally I shoot hinds in preference to stags better eating and the numbers definitly do need to be controlled.

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look at NZDA code of conduct rules 30 years ago..... rather interesting in light of today.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

look at NZDA code of conduct rules 30 years ago..... rather interesting in light of today.

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A bit off subject but I joined NZDA about 4 years ago after hunting successfully for 40+ years, forestry company wanted their public liability insurance cover for hunting even though my own insurance gave as good cover, F##k me some of their code of conduct rules are the same as they were 50 years ago. Some of the rules are out of date in todays world of excess animal numbers, the same argument that was put forward in the deer culling and venison recovery years.Don't get me wrong, there's a place for the likes of NZDA and GAC. For a bit of context: my father was a deer culler back in the day working with the likes of Bill Chisholm and co., my godfather was a lifelong NZDA member. They were great mates but they certainly had some differances of opinion regarding herd management.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

to some extent I agree...and to some,not so much....its borderline criminal for that to be shot via chopper for venison market and the head ground up for horn candy. if any foot hunter saw that stag,it would be shot and carried out.trophy of a lifetime.... now hunting stags post roar gives then chance to root and pass on genes,shooting them in velvet and stripping antlers does not...to me it is just about as senseless as stag hanging on strop under chopper or rotting in creek from poison.
but we all want to hunt roaring stags,for the thril of the chase ...at some point in our hunting it becomes the be all and end all,some stick with it,others dont. IM rather ho hum about it now.Ive shot some good stags but wont pass up another if find one. I will carry what meat I can. I wont kill myself doing so,thats silly,but if I brought out no meat,my Mrs would kick me out to sleep on street.
in some ways shooting hinds is even more playing gamble as cant see how good of genetics they carry... but yip they taste better.
when private blocks next door are locked up,there will always be deer migrating/moving back n forwards in and out of blocks,the riverbed areas are holding quite a few too,escapees and there multigenerational off spring.

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Re the shooting of hinds with good genetics, a great hind has little impact on shifting the genetics of a herd compared to a stag just because she is limited by the number of offspring she produces per year. If we shot all the poor stags and left only the very top ones so that they covered 40 -50 hinds each we would see a dramatic improvement in antler genetics. Instead we shoot the good ones and leave the crap arse ones to breed. If you wanted to breed olympic sprinters would you choose Usane Bolt or Danny Devito as the sire ?

The managed wild herds in Europe that produce spectacular heads dont shoot the best stags until they are going down hill and are too old to hold hinds - 12 yrs +. They shoot all the crap ones out

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Originally Posted by bumblefoot

I watched an NZ hunting vid a few days where they had to "cull a few stinkies" to do their part in game management. The goats were in a few mobs of half a dozen or so, as were the fallow deer. But of course; the deer were sacrosanct.... Surely they should have culled a few deer and just left them there like they did the goats?

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most people are not great white hunters who follow the tracks in the blizzard and claps the deer with grand papi's 25-20. Most people would recover the deer or not shoot it.

@Russian 22 I would recover them too. But interesting that they would cull goats, but not cull the deer that were in big numbers

The situation strikes me as a case of poor communication from DOC at best and DOC having no f***ing clue at worst. In the seven years that I've had various DOC permits (yeah, not worth the paper they are written on), not once have I received any communication saying high numbers of animals in block X, or indeed any communication. How and who decides "numbers are out of control"? I'm a hunter, not a pest controller. DOC are going to do whatever the hell the like anyway, so why worry?

@MB About a year ago I rang up DOC Whanganui to inquire and clarify a paper road/access. They told me it made a change because usually it was people calling them to ask where to go looking for deer. They then said "But we don't ever tell them because we want somewhere to hunt too".... True story... ;)

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Originally Posted by bumblefoot

@MB About a year ago I rang up DOC Whanganui to inquire and clarify a paper road/access. They told me it made a change because usually it was people calling them to ask where to go looking for deer. They then said "But we don't ever tell them because we want somewhere to hunt too".... True story... ;)

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I spent about half an hour between 2 DOC offices trying to get a hunting permit for a restricted hunting area. Far out. Two offices that couldnt find it on their own website when I was spelling it out then claiming it was under another office. I reckon that was a DOC staff venison block that they keep to themselves.

Sent from my SM-A528B using Tapatalk

well went out to look for a stag
heard very few roars...and a tasty young hind said "take me home and warm me in fry pan"
SO I DID.....

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Re the shooting of hinds with good genetics, a great hind has little impact on shifting the genetics of a herd compared to a stag just because she is limited by the number of offspring she produces per year. If we shot all the poor stags and left only the very top ones so that they covered 40 -50 hinds each we would see a dramatic improvement in antler genetics. Instead we shoot the good ones and leave the crap arse ones to breed. If you wanted to breed olympic sprinters would you choose Usane Bolt or Danny Devito as the sire ?

The managed wild herds in Europe that produce spectacular heads dont shoot the best stags until they are going down hill and are too old to hold hinds - 12 yrs +. They shoot all the crap ones out

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if you wanted to breed top athelete would you by pass Valery Adams and only use Stephen????
two top level competitors in two VERY different sports,arguably have same genetics

but I agree we shoot ourselves in the foot...pun intended.
that top hind SHOULD poke out a top stag fawn at some point..... hopefully he lives long enough to poke a few hinds and pass on genes.
either way,we need to be seen to do something... I do wonder what goes through minds of chopper shooter when they whack over something as special as those you showed.... no matter which way you look at that it is short sighted dumb move.

To be able to manage genetics as mentioned above, you need a lot of open territory or semi open forest where you can have a clear view of roughly how many animals are around, which ones need culling which one need keeping and reasonably good access.
Something that can reasonably be done on farm land or some private land for exemple but impossible to do in the kaimais of similar large national forests.
One solution would be to cut big large alleys in those forest to creat some large open zone so that those animals can be managed more efficiently. Something forest and bird will probably be against.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

To be able to manage genetics as mentioned above, you need a lot of open territory or semi open forest where you can have a clear view of roughly how many animals are around, which ones need culling which one need keeping and reasonably good access.
Something that can reasonably be done on farm land or some private land for exemple but impossible to do in the kaimais of similar large national forests.
One solution would be to cut big large alleys in those forest to creat some large open zone so that those animals can be managed more efficiently. Something forest and bird will probably be against.

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instead of dropping bucket loads of poison...imagine how great it would be to be dropping plane loads of superphosphate on ridgetops instead!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Friwi

To be able to manage genetics as mentioned above, you need a lot of open territory or semi open forest where you can have a clear view of roughly how many animals are around, which ones need culling which one need keeping and reasonably good access.
Something that can reasonably be done on farm land or some private land for exemple but impossible to do in the kaimais of similar large national forests.
One solution would be to cut big large alleys in those forest to creat some large open zone so that those animals can be managed more efficiently. Something forest and bird will probably be against.

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Pellet counts should be able to tell you how many animals are in an area ?

One of the things we have to remember is age instead of antler points or antler length. i would rather have an old 10 pointer than a young 12. There is definatly an over population of deer in nz at the moment so i really have no problem someone shooting 2-3 hinds and only taking the backsteaks.

My Son and I plan on going out for a culling session on Saturday evening. We still plan to retrieve all the deer but give them to a friend or 2 depending how we get on.

If its not done the farmer will have no crop for his stock come winter, it will be a good chance for my Son to drop a couple and hopefully get him excited again.

Listened to a meat-eater podcast where they were talking about trophy whitetail they took trophy quality whitetail from Wisconsin i think real big solid boys and does aswell and took them to another state
where the feed quality wasn't there like where they were captured, what they found was the bucks went down hill the hinds gave birth to bucks that were nowhere near the size of said father. They were the
same quality no bigger / better then other local deer this wasn't dues to genetics at all but feed quality. They did the reverse and moved deer to an area know for big bucks and the bucks were far better then
where they came from and they also found that if mum has a good supply of quality feed when pregnant this set up the bucks for life, poor health does gave birth to forever stunted bucks the conclusion was
genetics made very little difference as they managed to rule this out - very interesting cant help but this some of this will apply to red deer aswell

Trophy quality can be limited by either genetics or nutrition. In NZ wild red deer, it is much more likely to be limited by nutrition than genetics, due to poor soil nutrients & competition. It isn't comparable to farmed deer, where when the nutrition limit is hit genetics becomes important.

Age of wild stags is also a limiting factor, very few get old enough.

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Originally Posted by sore head stoat

Pellet counts should be able to tell you how many animals are in an area ?

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That would depend on food avaiability I assume

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Originally Posted by Pengy

That would depend on food avaiability I assume

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If you dont have the food the deer wont be there and the pellets wont be there either ?

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4495278

Last sentence under the paragraph titled Abstract.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Trophy quality can be limited by either genetics or nutrition. In NZ wild red deer, it is much more likely to be limited by nutrition than genetics, due to poor soil nutrients & competition. It isn't comparable to farmed deer, where when the nutrition limit is hit genetics becomes important.

Age of wild stags is also a limiting factor, very few get old enough.

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I found reading old trophy hunting books fascinating for the information on this topic. Looking at the production of trophies from various herds as the deer expanded their range into new country with unlimited feed. Some herds have just never produced trophies - the Thorndon Hall stock for example that were released to become the Nelson Herd. Other herds have consistently produced trophies of note

It would tend to be the case that for more or less every herd, other than the Nelson herd, that nutrition and age are the most significant limiting factors.

well,I look at the cracker 12 that JoshC posted photo of...and look at the young 11 I shot a few years back quite a few miles south of there...and the 10 I shot 34years ago in middle of north island and a fella could be mistaken for thinking they were all from the same parents.
this season SHOULD all things considered show up some very good sets of antlers ,around south canterbury at least...we have had one of best grass growing seasons for decades,the stags have had a couple of easier years during rut where not every 2nd deer was shot,and people are starting to let young stuff grow older.
genetica play a big part but it needs good feed for them to really shine.

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Originally Posted by gimp

It would tend to be the case that for more or less every herd, other than the Nelson herd, that nutrition and age are the most significant limiting factors.

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Age certainly, but it is unfortunate that because of some hundreds of liberations outside of the main herds we in the south are riddled with crappy localised genetics.
Not saying that good genetics can overcome a poor start or poor feed but that a good start and good feed cannot overcome poor genetics.
Often a farm escape grows a tremendous head in an area with wild stock not know to ever produce much of note, which when this happens over and over builds evidence for the importance of genetics ?

for sure the escapee might...but what of their progeny???? surely by now there is enough thats been out mingling for long enough the "good blood" should have filtered through???? or has the bred for meat/weight lot got out and stuffed the advantage the bred for good head size and symmetry stock has added???
I shot a real scrubby 8pt head 6-7 years back now that even now surprises me how heavy it is to pick up,the bone is just solid yet the size n shape are piss poor..that stag was no morethan a km away from farm with arguably some of the best genetics in the world....I have picked up a cast antler from same patch of bush that is honest 40 inches in length and timber is as thick as my wrist...and by look of the top,its going backwards,so old stag past prime on way out...... both would have same feed oppertunities.... maybe the smaller fella was born in poor year and had poor start in life,or mum got ride to freezer before he was ready to go it alone. either way the difference between those two is huge.

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Originally Posted by gimp

It would tend to be the case that for more or less every herd, other than the Nelson herd, that nutrition and age are the most significant limiting factors.

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Genetics and age I think are the limiting factors. I have seen stags on a large area of private land with excellent genetics and managed poorly produce big heads.They were under year round feed stress. They could have been bigger with better feed but still produced 300DS plus size heads.
And by the way the Nelson herd now produces some of the biggest free range stags there is. They are definitely not the the original genetics though.