I and my hunting mates are distressed that the Southland shooting sentencing today, seems to be severely inadequate...from 41 metres, fluoro clothing, scope....BUCK FEVER.. crap...NO BLOODY EXCUSE....Manslaughter and should have been mandatory....
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I and my hunting mates are distressed that the Southland shooting sentencing today, seems to be severely inadequate...from 41 metres, fluoro clothing, scope....BUCK FEVER.. crap...NO BLOODY EXCUSE....Manslaughter and should have been mandatory....
While it's quite possible that the sentence was inadequate, the judge had access to much better testimony than us, so it is easy to judge his/her decision.
Welcome Bruce.
Sweet he'll be all ready for next Roar ! . Puts it in perspective doesn't it ! .
hmmmm don't think he will get a fal again
Don't need one to go hunting if ya mate has !Quote:
Originally Posted by Dynastar27
Mind you I hope this prick struggles to find a mate
Welcome Bruce. Agreed, does not make any sense to me.
Yup Munsey, too easy to borrow a mates rifle and this guy could be out there again... Ah well, as long s they hand out wet bus tickets, this will just happen again and again...
I would guess the vast majority would make their excuses if he asked them if he could tag along'Quote:
Originally Posted by Munsey
You would kind of hope they would be a bit more direct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pengy
I wouldn't hunt with someone that I know doesn't practice safe habits, and if they decided they must come along I would go fishing instead.
Doesnt matter what sentence is dished out. No hunter goes into the bush with the intent of shooting someone. Education before issuing a FAL is the only way this will stop future incidents.
Education must be about identifying your target. So for instance if FAL officers were to setup some human and animal targets in thick bush and have a 3-5 sec period in which you must shoot or not this would at least get the hunter pre-conditioned to clearly identifying your target. You shoot a human target, you instantly fail and must re-apply.
Rusky, not all FAL folks hunt.
As i've said before this type of incident only seems to occur amongst hunters. My feeing is that the training you're taking of shoud be part of hunting licensing not firearms licensing....
Safety rules for storage and access to firearms for general FAL (can't remember last time I read in the news about someone shooting themselves or another while cleaning rifle etc), but this target identification thing is squarely on hunters.
The shooter is was a firearms safety advocate/instructor?
The only way to stop it is not get hyped up and pressure yourself to get a deer.
Sent from my GT-S5360T using Tapatalk 2
Ebf, i just edited my post above.
Would hunting training even help? This guy would have probably been someone who would be the training insructor.
Get to get this shooting at movement shit identified in people before they get a fal if they intend to hunt.how I wouldn't know but it might help.
bloody shit phone
Toby, the training I am talking bout is not "how to hunt", it is "how not to mistake a person for a deer" - training people to consciously slow down, run through a mental checklist before even putting their finger inside the trigger guard etc. maybe showing video of interviews with family and friends of hunters who have been killed to show the impact. Interviews with guys who pulled the trigger and killed someone else, telling how it has impacted their lives. ANYTHING to get guys to stop and think for the one or two seconds that will make a difference between life and death for another person in the bush.
Coming from a country where stags and hinds/bucks and does have different seasons (UK), I've always been in the habit of identifying what sex a deer is before I even consider raising the rifle, which I can tell you is a damn good way of getting a positive ID!
I'm not suggesting seasons for different sex deer here, but the right kind of education and a clear plan of what you intend to and not to shoot before a hunt is always a good start.
New hunters on this forum are lucky that there is a wealth of readily available information and some very good buggers that are willing to give that information freely and often offer their time too!
The average punter who buys a gun and heads into the bush with no knowledge, having done no research and having little or no experience must be far more likely to be involved in or cause an "accident".
This guy should have known better and someone paid the ultimate price because of his stupidity, he surely deserved more than he got, if only for the victims families sake!
Reading elsewhere that there is a possibility that he helped the police put someone in jail several years ago for the same thing
I'm disappointed with this sentence.
While I agree that extra penalty to this individual would likely make no change to his likely hood of reoffending in a like manner I fell that I much stronger message could have been sent to the hunting public. And the victims family would have felt better as well. It's not like the shooter was a crim who will use the time in jail to be a better crim-it would be actual punishment.
Wet bus ticket IMHO
He has been given a sentence that for no man would ever want and a great many choose not to live with ...
Are you really implying that a significant number choose killing themselves over a short term of having to stay at home??
If they do,(and I have no idea of the stats) then home detention is a cruel and unusual punishment-more call in my mind to put them in jail where help can be given and the family's don't have to pick up the tab (the rest if us can do that)
i agree Munsey I don't think any one would be dumb enough to take him outQuote:
Originally Posted by Munsey
guys im pretty new to deer stalking and it is a rush but I seem to keep my self calm why cant others its not hard.
how do you mistake a human wearing a high vis top and acting like a human that's what I cant get my head around
also makes me thing was he hunting with his finger on the trigger who knows
I apologize, my understanding is a small % of people involved in similar situations have off'd themselves.
In general I don't believe the prospect of doing time is a deterrent wide array of crimes. In the heat of the moment, possibility in this instance of "buck fever" and other crimes of passion it wouldn't made a difference what the term is. The "crime" will be committed regardless. We will continue to see hunters killed every year. This instance and the previous involving the ex. president of Wellington DA highlight this, no? To me, these to instances only enforce that fact - Even the "best" are not immune to buck fever.
If you put Wayne behind bars for 21 years, do you think this would reduce the number of hunters killed? I'm of the opinion; no.
Increase hunter training, maybe. But, I think it is unlikely. I think we sadly just accept people will die and continue to do so. I'd like to think I have a solution, I just don't think there is one.
that's very true we all know the risks when we step in to the bush any thing could happen
be it good or bad
so why do we do it ..... Because we enjoy it
Dangerous Dan, you have no need to apologise!
I think as a society we have to show the family of the victim that there death is valued unless there is a greater good to be served-and in this case I don't see that-the chance of reoffending is probably the same with or without jail so let's value the family's lose fairly.
Hunter training may help prevent a repeat,but what's the point of attaching this to firearms licensing? Most shooters I know don't hunt,they are target shooters,who don't seem to shoot each other
@res @Toby @Dangerous Dan well mayby they need to do what the they do with the E cat and ask why you want/need a fal if hunting is the reason then put them though a hunter training courseQuote:
Originally Posted by res
but then are they going to tell the truth on there application
There are worse ideas,I don't see any other ways of working out how who needs what training.
But what about those who change what they do over time?
that's very true
When this incident first came to light and I heard all the details of it, I thought back to all the other high vis fatal shootings in NZ. I then looked at my high vis vest and thought "whats the point"? It now lives at the bottom of my closet. If your times up, its up!
I think the main problem is caused from the moment you apply for a FAL. It is just way to easy to get one. Read a book, answer some questions, interview and wamo, here you go, go and shot shit up in the bush if thats what you want to do. Far to easy.
There needs to be a course like HUNTS, or you need to attend x amount of guided hunts through the Deer Stalkers or something.
I never grew up around guns. When I got my licence i knew jack shit about how to even use a gun (removing bolt, loading correctly) let alone how to hunt or identify my target. Its just to easy to make a cock up when you have no real idea.
Be interesting to know the stats of countries shooting accidents....
We are a bit different here.... less people less regulation, our type of bush stalking is less common than other places.... bush probably thicker...
It would be interesting to have some serious research work done on it....
There is a whole raft of surrounding issues.... hi vis clothing etc....
I am back to camo now (green accent not brown) .... will put reflective vis on an animal when carrying it, but orange draws attention I reckon and can look brown in certain light in the bush...... will wear orange in open country....
I'm not sure there is any evidence to show that the licencing system is the problem, after all it seems to be the more experienced people that it happens to.
I think complacency is the problem, and self discipline is probably the only realistic answer, and not having the "It would never happen to me" attitude.
I agree, if you look at all these cases it is never the new wet behind the ears hunter that ends up shooting someone, it mostly is the old hand, experienced, and quite often highly respected member of the hunting community that accidentally shoots someone.
complacency of having done it that many times and its always been a deer, but this time it wasn't.
I know a bloke personally who has shot a mate, fortunately it was not fatal, he is a highly experienced hunter. He swears that what he shot at was a deer, no matter how many times he goes over it, he can't even tell me what would have prevented it, he was that convinced it was a deer.
I was always of the opinion that it was completely avoidable, after speaking with him i am not completely sure, has made me a shitload more aware of it though!
I don't identify my target, and it will never happen to me! How does that sound?
I identify WHERE I AM GOING TO PUT THE ROUND!, if you do that, you will never shoot anything you should not- I don't go "it's a deer" BANG!, I go "where do I need to put the round" factoring in the angle/ elevation/bullet construction ect, and have trained myself to never snap shoot, and let it go rather than not have the spot on placement. Has cost me a few animals by being slow to fire, has frustrated me (and others!) a time or two, but never a doubt or mistake.
One of the tragic things about the sentencing in this case, is the judge has given zero account to the damage done to the wife and kids, not just emotionally but financially.
He was a respected multiple farm manager taking a salary of $80k a year, a vehicle with expenses and a free house and power. Mum and the kids have had to leave and find a new home at at very little notice and with the breadwinner gone. The person responsible for this, should be making repatriation, even if it meant selling his art gallery and home.
The sentence is a travesty of justice, it should be mandatory to cover the surviving family financially for at least a year to buy some recovery time for the surviving family when that family has been financially dependant on the murder victim. The murderer gets to continue living and can rebuild his life after a financial cleanout. Try telling a six year old, "you have to get out of your house cause your daddy's not coming home".
Perhaps someone clever will jump on here and give an adequate descriptive of the meaning of "justice"
Mate the problem is that its just not that simple...
if you take from him, you also take from his family, is that justice? I agree that the victims family has suffered as a result, but if he had taken out a life insurance policy, maybe they wouldn't be?
There is no such thing as justice in terms of making it right, or making it fair. Not possible... some attempt has to be made to compensate for the harm, but to what extent?
Justice actually isn't about making it right or fair.... Justice is about accountability, answering for your actions to society and to the victims. Compensation is a different thing..... remorse can't be assessed by outsiders.....
Justice has been served here..... penalty and compensation may not have been.... that however is not for us either..
+ 1 with SNIPER there. Its all too easy. There's no real hands on training unless you do HUNTS (voluntarily) It needs to be part of the licensing, end of story.
My latest hunting adventure the weekend just been involved my mate and I. He was 3m in front of me, and maybe 2m to my left. Out pops mr piggy and I have him dead on, clear as day in front of me (He didn't). I didn't take the shot coz my mate was in front.......end of story. I'd like to think I try and make those decisions because I'm always thinking what if?......Its not a deer or he trips at that exact moment when I pull the trigger......etc etc........
The "million to one accident" happens a bit too often for my liking lads
Sadly enough I reckon I have a fair bit of knowledge on this subject. :sick:
It seems really simple aye? Trust me it's not. In my opinion, I don't even know how/ if it can be stopped.
Sticking to the 7 basics helps 1000x over, but doesn't eliminate the risk of accidentally shooting somebody. Its like saying "I don't speed, nor drink drive, I wear my seatbelt, therefore I will never kill anybody in a road accident." Ignorant logic.
Simple fact of the matter is, EVERYTHING is based on peoples judgement and People have a LONG history of fucking things up.
I am not standing up for the guy but I'd say, that to this day he swears he saw a deer. The brain simply sees what it wants. Lots of studies been done on this, you have all seen the magic guys whipping watches etc, same shit.
A lot of love and understanding from me, goes out to Adam's family and friends, but also to the guy that fucked up. All you hard cunts that want to hang the guy, just take a moment and imagine waking up every day knowing that you fucked up that bad and ended somebody's life. Anybody that has experienced something real fucking awful knows how these things don't go away, and that its not just on waking that you remember.
If he was truly a piece of shit with no remorse, then that was for the Judge to decide.
My 2c worth.
On a similar but different note, am I confused or has this guy kept his FAL?? I saw in the court news that the firearm involved was confiscated, yet no mention of revocation? (loss of FAL) If that is the case then I will be royally upset.
I completely agree with the above posts about safety being first and I am encouraged by the attitude of this forum. While I have only made a few posts myself - with this first post, the day after the sentance being handed down I almost smell a troll...