Thread: Hunter shot in Kaimai Range near Te Aroha

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/102...-near-te-aroha

The Kaimais aren’t west of Te Aroha? Maybe on farmland, or more likely stuff reporting.

Let's hope he makes it... And he is the only one this roar....

IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET

This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail. Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm. Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail. Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm. Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.

I totally agree. If it is miss identification there seems to be science providing excuses as well.
People seeing and identifying deer and firing.....killing or wounding a human.
Its bullshit imo. I have never seen phantom deer morph into humans or vice versa.











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Originally Posted by R93

If it is miss identification there seems to be science providing excuses as well.

Not excuses, but a reason. Big difference.

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Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

This really makes my blood boil, EVERY bloody year some fucking retard does this, every year, without fail.

If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Time to get tough on them, it's not manslaughter, it's murder, lock them up and throw away the key.

No. If there was no intent to kill a person, then it's manslaughter.

Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Don't go giving me that "it could happen to anyone" shit either, it happens to asshole over inflated ego sociopaths that shouldn't be in charge of a firearm.

Yeah, nah. Sorry, I'm going to go there. IF this was a case of target misidentification, then it CAN happen to anyone. Humans are fallible, and will always make mistakes. You can follow the 7 basic rules and still fuck it up. In most cases of misidentification of the target, the shooter was adamant they were shooting at an animal. Confirmation Bias is a real thing where your brain tricks itself into seeing what it is expecting to see. It happens to pilots and has explained various plane crashes, and it happens to hunters who are searching the bush for a deer. They are thinking "is that a deer" and looking for things that reinforce that view, rather than asking " is it a person" and looking for evidence of that.

We ask ourselves the wrong questions in the heat of the moment and it sends us to the wrong conclusion.

There are no such things as accidents, so instead of pointing the finger at the shooter and saying "they fucked up. They didn't follow the rules", we need to find out HOW and WHY they messed up and got it so wrong. That way we can indentify the what went wrong and develop techniques to reduce the number of times it occurs.

There is a whole subject on this, called Human Factors - a study on how and why humans make mistakes and how they contribute to accidents. This is not unique to hunting, as it happens across industries. Aviation, Maritime shipping, Oil & Gas, Medicine, etc.

Yes, the shooter is to blame, but blame does nothing to prevent this happening again. I'm interested in the nitty gritty of the how and the why, and hopefully learning something from this tragedy. Cognitive biases do not make these mistakes ok, but it helps us understand how and why they happen so we can be aware of our own fallibility and develop techniques to mitigate it.

This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171

Originally Posted by stretch

Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall.



If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.




No. If there was no intent to kill a person, then it's manslaughter.




Yeah, nah. Sorry, I'm going to go there. IF this was a case of target misidentification, then it CAN happen to anyone. Humans are fallible, and will always make mistakes. You can follow the 7 basic rules and still fuck it up. In most cases of misidentification of the target, the shooter was adamant they were shooting at an animal. Confirmation Bias is a real thing where your brain tricks itself into seeing what it is expecting to see. It happens to pilots and has explained various plane crashes, and it happens to hunters who are searching the bush for a deer. They are thinking "is that a deer" and looking for things that reinforce that view, rather than asking " is it a person" and looking for evidence of that.

We ask ourselves the wrong questions in the heat of the moment and it sends us to the wrong conclusion.

There are no such things as accidents, so instead of pointing the finger at the shooter and saying "they fucked up. They didn't follow the rules", we need to find out HOW and WHY they messed up and got it so wrong. That way we can indentify the what went wrong and develop techniques to reduce the number of times it occurs.

There is a whole subject on this, called Human Factors - a study on how and why humans make mistakes and how they contribute to accidents. This is not unique to hunting, as it happens across industries. Aviation, Maritime shipping, Oil & Gas, Medicine, etc.

Yes, the shooter is to blame, but blame does nothing to prevent this happening again. I'm interested in the nitty gritty of the how and the why, and hopefully learning something from this tragedy. Cognitive biases do not make these mistakes ok, but it helps us understand how and why they happen so we can be aware of our own fallibility and develop techniques to mitigate it.

This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171

No, not if you follow them.

Originally Posted by Gibo

No, not if you follow them.

Not true. "Identify your target beyond all doubt" SHOULD be enough, but it's not. People convince themselves it's an animal to the point where there is no doubt in their mind, yet they are still wrong.

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Originally Posted by stretch

Not true. "Identify your target beyond all doubt" SHOULD be enough, but it's not. People convince themselves it's an animal to the point where there is no doubt in their mind, yet they are still wrong.

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It worries me that you see that as ok. You must to be so vocal to support that view.

We should all just remember that when we are pointing the finger there are three more pointing back at us...

Remember the "school-teacher-death" ? that guy had just fallen asleep in his tent, when his mates woke him,telling him there were deer on the track. A few minutes later, they spot-lighted the school-teacher,and given in evidence, that someone said: "there's one ", and we all know the outcome. But, the person who pushed the most, for manslaughter and prison,through the Media, was the same guy who later shot a young fella by accident,down Wellington-way. That boy was wearing bright orange. He got home-Detention, from memory, and tried to pervert the course of justice by lying and denying he'd been there.He recently tried getting his licence back ! But the point is ; He said ALL the same stuff originally, that many are saying here, to sway those in power: It wasnt an accident, he didnt bother to identify target, I've been hunting for blah-years,member of nzda, I would know etc. etc And it worked; the young guy got 4 yrs..Then,common-sense-guy,does the same,in broad-daylight a few yrs later. We can get it wrong,He got it wrong, and he was the guy shouting the most,that there was NO excuse..just a thought...

Originally Posted by stretch

Although 64% of firearms incidents [not necessarily fatalities] while hunting large game ARE due to misidentification, perhaps we should wait a bit before analysing it. Nothing has come out about this fatality to suggest it's a case of target misidentification. It may have been self-inflicted during a trip or a fall.



If you ARE indeed referring to target misidentification, records have been kept since 1979, and 26 of the 39 years since then have had a fatality attributed to target misidentification. So there have been 13 years where there were none.




No. If there was no intent to kill a person, then it's manslaughter.




Yeah, nah. Sorry, I'm going to go there. IF this was a case of target misidentification, then it CAN happen to anyone. Humans are fallible, and will always make mistakes. You can follow the 7 basic rules and still fuck it up. In most cases of misidentification of the target, the shooter was adamant they were shooting at an animal. Confirmation Bias is a real thing where your brain tricks itself into seeing what it is expecting to see. It happens to pilots and has explained various plane crashes, and it happens to hunters who are searching the bush for a deer. They are thinking "is that a deer" and looking for things that reinforce that view, rather than asking " is it a person" and looking for evidence of that.

We ask ourselves the wrong questions in the heat of the moment and it sends us to the wrong conclusion.

There are no such things as accidents, so instead of pointing the finger at the shooter and saying "they fucked up. They didn't follow the rules", we need to find out HOW and WHY they messed up and got it so wrong. That way we can indentify the what went wrong and develop techniques to reduce the number of times it occurs.

There is a whole subject on this, called Human Factors - a study on how and why humans make mistakes and how they contribute to accidents. This is not unique to hunting, as it happens across industries. Aviation, Maritime shipping, Oil & Gas, Medicine, etc.

Yes, the shooter is to blame, but blame does nothing to prevent this happening again. I'm interested in the nitty gritty of the how and the why, and hopefully learning something from this tragedy. Cognitive biases do not make these mistakes ok, but it helps us understand how and why they happen so we can be aware of our own fallibility and develop techniques to mitigate it.

This is a good time to stop and have a read of Mountain Safety Council's research on hunting accidents and fatalities. https://issuu.com/nzmountainsafetyco...22887/44292171

There is a large difference that you are willfully ignoring in order to make your point, between target mis-identification and target non-identification.

I believe it could happen to anyone,given the cases I have read here and overseas. A good example is ex-branch-President of NZDA, . Like Ryan above, he screamed for blood when the school-teacher was tragically-shot by a spot-lighter in Turangi. His calls for manslaughter, led to a gaol-sentence...fast-forward a couple of years later, where he himself, in broad-daylight, shot a guy through the head. The young guy was wearing a hi-vis beany. I wonder how many of the shooters are colour-blind, as no coroners reports, appear to address or mention this. As another member said, its tragic, but we do have to get a greater understanding about it, because its obviously not going away..

Dont get all upset yet. It may not be a case of Identifying the target, it could be an accidental discharge which is breaking a very different rule...or even inflicted upon the shooter by themselves if that is the case.....Either way, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED!