Illegal hunting..does it bother you?

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Originally Posted by Rushy

As to the original question, yes illegal hunting and for that matter, anything else that brings our fraternity into disrepute pisses me off.

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+1

Illegal shooting not only concerns me, it scares the shit out of me.
I have had a number of incidents where illegal shooting by others has put my safety at risk, on both public and private land, and on one of those occasions I was actually hunting with a DOC Ranger.

For that reason, I no longer hunt on public land.

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Originally Posted by deer243

Thermal Imagers on Department of Conservation managed land.
Using thermal imagers on D.O.C. managed land is great for safe target identification, or spotting game day and night. However, shooting at night is disallowed, so if using night vision or thermal imaging at night, intent not to hunt must be proven. An empty rifle chamber and magazine is sufficient proof at night, or better still, leave the rifle behind when spotting game.

This is written on yukons website.
Fact. yes, using spotlights, torches, any light source and thermals, heat seeking devices etc hunting at night is banned
2 Using any of these devices etc while not hunting is ok. DOc cant stop you walking a DOC track at night using a torch, spotlight searching for animals etc to record numbers etc if you without a firearm or anything to havest a animal with.
It wont hold up in court.......but do you want the hassle when they accuse you but intend to hunt must be proven......just saying

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You might want to check on that. pretty sure most of the wildlife act is written on the presumption of guilt. In other words its written that the defendant has to prove thier innocence.
IE, caught with a deer and a thermal- if you cant prove it was not used illegally you are in the poo.

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Originally Posted by mimms2

I f@cking hate drones with a passion.

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Why??

I take mine hunting as I like making videos of my trips. So if I'm sitting on a mountain top and fly my drone up straight above me, high enough that you can't see or hear it...How could that bother you? As you would never even know its there. And all it does is give me some nice scenic footage, so how it could piss anyone off is beyond me!

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Originally Posted by whanahuia

You might want to check on that. pretty sure most of the wildlife act is written on the presumption of guilt. In other words its written that the defendant has to prove thier innocence.
IE, caught with a deer and a thermal- if you cant prove it was not used illegally you are in the poo.

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Sort of, but the law does not presume guilt.

I think that you are alluding to the principle of "strict liability".

In strict liability the Crown or claimant need only prove that the act or action occurred and that the defendant was responsible. Intention does not need to be proven. Strict liability is incorporated into Acts where offences are considered to be inherently dangerous.

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Originally Posted by kukuwai

It pisses me right off !!!!

Here's a good one for you all.....

I rolled into a hut a few weeks back with my 13year old son, there were a couple of young 'hunters' from Nelson just packing up and a tramper in residence.

My young fella asks the 'hunters' if they have seen any deer. "Yea heaps, about 6 i think" was the reply. Given the area I think.....shit that's pretty good.

They carry on packing and I notice a thermal and a couple of spotlights, so does my boy.
We then went outside and my boy says to me.." i don't want to jump to any conclusions but did you see that thermal and spotlights?"

Yep i did, so decide to ask them a question....

"Those deer you seen, they didn't happen to be at night did they?"

"Shit yea bro, I've never actually shot a deer in the daytime"! Was the reply.

Unfucking believable !!! No private land for miles only national park !!!

Turns out from talking to the tramper who returned later in the day that they never actually went hunting in the day only at night !!

I find this sort of shit sooooo disappointing!!










Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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So all that gear was of no advantage to getting a deer as they didn't get one.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Sort of, but the law does not presume guilt.

I think that you are alluding to the principle of "strict liability".

In strict liability the Crown or claimant need only prove that the act or action occurred and that the defendant was responsible. Intention does not need to be proven. Strict liability is incorporated into Acts where offences are considered to be inherently dangerous.

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Could you perhaps expand on the above please Tahr. Fish and Game are umbrellaed under the Conservation Act. Would the way in which the law is applied to F&G offences be an indication of how it might also be applied to DOC hunting offences ?. F&G seem to be able to get a prosecution for intent - possession of a rod or gun without a licence and no proof of illegal activity.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Could you perhaps expand on the above please Tahr. Fish and Game are umbrellaed under the Conservation Act. Would the way in which the law is applied to F&G offences be an indication of how it might also be applied to DOC hunting offences ?. F&G seem to be able to get a prosecution for intent - possession of a rod or gun without a licence and no proof of illegal activity.

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Get your head around this little lot :) It goes through some of the important principles, but its damn complex.

https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/asset.../2019/jsep.pdf

Looks to me that DG Conservation can make up his / her own rules but not the rest of us. @Tahr.
Can of worms alright.
The reference to "reckless" is interesting too.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....99/index2.html
Post #17 by headcase.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Get your head around this little lot :) It goes through some of the important principles, but its damn complex.

https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/asset.../2019/jsep.pdf

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So after a quick read it seems to me that thermals that are not attached to firearms or bows etc would be legal. They are visual aids / tools for locating wildlife the same as binoculars, spotting scopes and even glasses and their use does not cause disturbance or molest wildlife. They in themselves cannot be used for hunting. Drones however do have the potential to disturb or molest protected species.

I do wonder about the law around poaching, when unprotected game animals owned by the Crown are taken from private land. I always think that the offence should be around discharging a firearm on private land and not the animal.

Of course illegal hunting pisses me off.

It ruins the name of hunters in a time where we need to be watching ourselves more than ever.
I’ve lost fantastic access opportunities due to illegal hunting on private land adjacent to the public land i had permission to access. Not to mention legitimate access opportunities closed to general public because of it. Mid Pohangina being just one example I can think of.

I won’t be the only one with a story like this.

And as far as thermals go , i think we can all agree is that they aren’t particularly ethical if you want to hunt in the spirit of hunting.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I don't see hunting on Doc land without a permit as a biggie. Simply because having a permit doesn't prove anything about you. You never get declined if you apply for one. On numerous occasions I have had a check of the date on a permit and found it has expired. Doesn't mean I intended to hunt illegally, just an oversight.

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Intention doesn't have to be proven. If you do, you do.
Look at it in the context of H&S legislation. If you do something that might harm someone, the law doesn't care if you intended to or not.

I expect Sidney to re-appear any minute :)

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I don't see hunting on Doc land without a permit as a biggie. Simply because having a permit doesn't prove anything about you. You never get declined if you apply for one. On numerous occasions I have had a check of the date on a permit and found it has expired. Doesn't mean I intended to hunt illegally, just an oversight.

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I can see where 7mmwsm is coming from. The permit fulfils a legal purpose only. It does nothing to ascertain your proficiency in the bush or with a firearm/weapon. It does nothing to improve safety (i.e. limiting the number of hunters crammed into a single watershed during the Roar). And it does nothing to improve game management...'cause the bureaucrats in DoC do not believe in such a thing.

And 'cause it does very little for any of the above, I simple keep clicking till I have all the North Island and most of South included in the one permit.

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Most I see are within shotgun range.

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:D:D:D:thumbsup:

To me there are degrees of wrong in most situations. Illegal hunting being one of them.
As an example, a friend of mine used to hunt a large block of land in the North Island. It was privately owned (by a Maori trust) and neither he, or the many others who hunted it, ever got permission to do so. It bordered a large DoC block and people used to come and go off it as they pleased. It was not that the land owners didn't know (as some did) but more that they didn't care. The land was not being used for anything in particular and they were doing no harm to it apart from keeping the deer and pig numbers in check. Legally I guess you could say they were poaching as they did not have expressed permission to hunt there and could therefore be prosecuted but practically they were not upsetting anybody (ie the land owner) by being there hunting. Was that such a heinous crime? I don't think you can compare this to something like sneaking onto a game farm at night and shooting the owners prize stag. Someone who does this knows that the owner doesn't want them there and knows they shouldn't be there.
Foot note. The land I mentioned is now leased by a helicopter operator who (naturally) doesn't want people on it other than his paying clients. My mate has now stopped hunting there.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Yes you are right Tahr, but my question would be, what useful purpose does a permit serve?
And the more I think about the permit system the more I think it is a lot like Jacinda's "you must carry your papers" which gave you permission to be out doing your essential service during the lock up. The papers don't make any difference to the task, but give some "higher power" the ability to control you.

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We cannot get a permit without a firearms licence so requiring a permit gives some surety that others hunting are licenced (hopefully). It also gives contact details to DOC for those who may be there.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

We cannot get a permit without a firearms licence so requiring a permit gives some surety that others hunting are licenced (hopefully). It also gives contact details to DOC for those who may be there.

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This is not correct. Anyone can get a permit, including a person that doesnt have a firearms licence. Look at this


::You still need a DOC permit if you're hunting:

with a bow or knife
under the immediate supervision of someone with a valid New Zealand firearms licence (Section 4b of the Arms Code - Immediate supervision (external site)).""

Quoted under DOC permit system. So, if you going to hunt with a knife, bow, dogs etc or if you dont have a licence but going with someone that has and you maybe the one shooting under thier supervision you
need a permit and anyone can get one even if you dont have a firearms licennce.

Just checked, you blokes are right no licence required. I think that needs to change

Yes, previously you did need a firearms license to get a DOC Hunting permit but DOC updated the online site. Maybe part reason is that if you are supervising another person in the field who hasn't a firearms license, they too need to apply for a hunting permit. Interesting alright.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Just checked, you blokes are right no licence required. I think that needs to change

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No
Bow hunters.
Pig hunters with nothing more than dogs and a knife (and of course the quad).
Non hunting types who tag along with a FAL holder mate out of interest in maybe getting into it as all people tagging along in your party require a DOC permit to hunt whether they are hunting or not.

Works fine as it is, as they say, don't try to fix something that ant broke

Be like only allowing current FAL holders only into any hunting sports shops even if they are there just to check out camping, tramping and fishing gear.

It's interesting that until some time in the last month or two the DOC public policy around thermal contradicted itself. Previously the conditions on the permit itself stated no thermal could ever be used for hunting at any time while the website official unabridged conditions that were linked to when you completed the permit application said thermal could not be used during non-hunting night hours. It looks like either they've updated the website or I can't find the page I found previously. I checked because of all the miscommunication on the subject and found that the permit rules varied from the official rules. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark the page so it's gone unless I somehow find an old link somewhere. Given that until now even DOC was contradicting itself I'm not surprised that no one quite knows the rules. In this case until recently, it was completely possible to go to the DOC website, read the official rules, and get two completely different answers.

In terms of ethics, I'd say if you do your due diligence to follow rules as they are written, are conscientious in your behavior, and respect animals (IE ensure a clean quick death), you're fine. I don't really care past that. Hunt with a rocket launcher or pointy stick, if the animal dies quickly then it died better than most wild animals and lived better than some captive animals, so really that's a plus all round. Past that do whatever you want, especially if it doesn't inconvenience others excessively (I'm sure that some trampers will say that hearing a gunshot is unacceptable, so I'm willing to make allowance for small inconveniences... we can't be expected to get along all the time unless we're heavily drugged à la Brave New World).

I'd also say that people deliberately operating far outside the rules (IE shooting from a vehicle with a spotlight, from a public road, onto private land they don't have legal access to, without a firearms permit) aren't hunters... and we'd do well to correct any description of them as hunters to criminals and poachers, otherwise the public will see us as the same.

A guide and member of this forum jumped a deer fence into a game park from Doc land with a client and hunted without permission. Got caught, charged and convicted. Certainly bothered the game estate owner, and losing his firearms license probably bothered the so called guide.

My take on the DOC permit system is that its only useful purpose is to guide the applicant through any warnings that might be in force for any area select and also to put up the terms against which you tick the yes accept box.
Most of the terms are so open ended as to be pretty useless even as a guideline IMO. e.g.

No firearm shall be discharged:
In the vicinity of huts, tracks, campsites, road-ends or other public places.
Within 500 m of a Great Walk Hut or track. See Great Walks.
In a manner that endangers, frightens or annoys members of the public, or that endangers any property.

In the vicinity of huts, tracks, campsites, road-ends or other public places.
Well excuse me but the whole flipping DOC bit of land your hunting on is probably a 'other public place'

Yes some of it is quite poorly written really when you dissect it.

Fuck me some of you guys really overthink things and make mountains out of mole-hills. The same basic rules of the DOC permit system have existed since 1987 when DOC came into existance and are pretty much the same the same rules as we operated under back in the days of NZFS/Lands and Survey.I've looked back through the odd permit that I have,which were meant to be handed back in,just to check. Admitadly Thermal Vision and to some extent Night Vision are the latest aids, possibly to enable poor hunters? to bag their animals, but at the end of the day it's pretty simple. No hunting 1\2 hour after sunset till 1/2 hour before dawn.
I know we all stretch this from time to time. And yes, I do use thermal/night vision for pest control, they are a usefull tool as a means to an end but I am undecided as to how 'ethical' they are in a "recreational hunter" scenario. As I've stated before, pest control it's a numbers game and possibly your job on the line.But recreationally it's about getting out there,enjoying nature,the solitude of hunting on your own,the comararderie if hunting with others and hopefully the enjoyment of taking a trophy home and/or meat to feed family and friends or those in need.
Rant over,ready for the flaming, not too worried.

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Originally Posted by Puddleduk

A guide and member of this forum jumped a deer fence into a game park from Doc land with a client and hunted without permission. Got caught, charged and convicted. Certainly bothered the game estate owner, and losing his firearms license probably bothered the so called guide.

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really???? I missed that wee snippet of goss

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Spot lights and see in the dark gear are often perceived as sinister.
I can park up on a road side and glass a hill side in broad daylight and no one gives me a second glance. Park in the same spot at night and look at the same hill side with a light or thermal gear, and I'm immediately judged as up to no good.

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Yep, do anything normal but at night and it's sinister. But carry a clipboard and wear a high-vis vest and all looks good again.

By the way, anyone got a milsurp infantry radar? DOC rules don't mention such. Literally analogous to a fishfinder but a bit heavier.

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Originally Posted by deer243

Unfortunately as we all know a number in our hunting community hunt illegally.
Be it spotlighting DOC, using thermal gear in Doc or hunting without permission on private property. As it happens to be as i know other hunters, forestry workers and other people in
the know i get to hear inforamation that i rather not know and frankly laterly its really pissing me off.

Ok, people are going to spotlight areas, hunt deer in DOC using thermal gear but when you know they shouldnt be and they hunting the areas you hunt in a illegal matter and
these guys are out there spotlighting the place up and doing thermal missions its really annoying me.
They basicly getting easy deer in a place i do hard yards in and making my hunting harder than it should be . Now i dont mind if other people hunt spots i go, i happy tell or take people to DOC blocks and tell them to go for it.
But i want it a fair playing field, good luck to them if they get out there and get a deer but these guys that doing it with spotlights andthermal i have no time for now.

Fact is its annoying me that much i feel like doing something about it. still, do i really want to be a nark? Not really, but people should play by the rules and its having a effect on some of my hunting spots
because people want it the easy way and do it illegally.
Im talking about DOc, and yes, theres a little bit oif a jealous feeling about it as sometimes i wish i could do that but i never do it and i dont see why these guys should be doing it in my neck of the woods.

I hate to say it , but i really dont want hear about the law breakers now as i feel its time something was done and im only going to be pissed off for so long.

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I haven't seen any of the others replys, but yes it pisses me off. went camping in some doc land a year or so ago only to have a truck load of teens turn up spotlighting and drinking. we had just got back out of the tree line where they were spotlighting and had our young son with us. I hate to think what would have happened if we popped out of the tree line 20mins later. We lit up camp as much as we could and they vanished pretty quickly but with the racket they made it ended up a very quiet weekend. Nothing we can do about them so we just try and head away during the week now and for a good 3-5 days if we can.

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Originally Posted by Chelsea

I haven't seen any of the others replys, but yes it pisses me off. went camping in some doc land a year or so ago only to have a truck load of teens turn up spotlighting and drinking. we had just got back out of the tree line where they were spotlighting and had our young son with us. I hate to think what would have happened if we popped out of the tree line 20mins later. We lit up camp as much as we could and they vanished pretty quickly but with the racket they made it ended up a very quiet weekend. Nothing we can do about them so we just try and head away during the week now and for a good 3-5 days if we can.

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Nothing is as it should or could be anymore. The old principles have gone and it's a not so brave world left. Expect the worse and be prepared for it, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by deer243

Unfortunately as we all know a number in our hunting community hunt illegally.
Be it spotlighting DOC, using thermal gear in Doc or hunting without permission on private property. As it happens to be as i know other hunters, forestry workers and other people in
the know i get to hear inforamation that i rather not know and frankly laterly its really pissing me off.

Ok, people are going to spotlight areas, hunt deer in DOC using thermal gear but when you know they shouldnt be and they hunting the areas you hunt in a illegal matter and
these guys are out there spotlighting the place up and doing thermal missions its really annoying me.
They basicly getting easy deer in a place i do hard yards in and making my hunting harder than it should be . Now i dont mind if other people hunt spots i go, i happy tell or take people to DOC blocks and tell them to go for it.
But i want it a fair playing field, good luck to them if they get out there and get a deer but these guys that doing it with spotlights andthermal i have no time for now.

Fact is its annoying me that much i feel like doing something about it. still, do i really want to be a nark? Not really, but people should play by the rules and its having a effect on some of my hunting spots
because people want it the easy way and do it illegally.
Im talking about DOc, and yes, theres a little bit oif a jealous feeling about it as sometimes i wish i could do that but i never do it and i dont see why these guys should be doing it in my neck of the woods.

I hate to say it , but i really dont want hear about the law breakers now as i feel its time something was done and im only going to be pissed off for so long.

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hey man, good to see this thread pop up on a kiwi forum.... its only just becoming 'known' just how the illegal harvest effects the legal recreational hunter.... esp in terms of 'trophies' or the older larger deer that everyone secretly wants, however they justify it..
In Australia i mean, it is beyond a joke to be honest.....

i hear ya an fell ya , my feeling is it isnt the same old story of sit back an dofuck all about it but 'complain' about it or let it deter you, (not you personally) but instead Report it to some bastard, IN Aus ,we have Police and also a "Game Managament Awfulrity " where we can report shit cunts and poachers, No it doesnt often lea to anything , if anything we hope it gets logged and the info soon adds up to paint a clearer picture that something amiss.... its obvious in places.

there is so many different sorts of illegal shit goin on, either a leuisurely spotlight, blow en em, a specific stag spotlight drive thru alpine country, walk lighting now replaced with thermal and day time thermal is also of note to claim as not in the name of a fair chase in my opinion, seen it first hand, its a piece of piss-proove me wrong-

my thoughts are genuine hunters stamp it out thru the community...... call them out, hang on, dont do that, Dob em in. fuck em.

Game animals, Game Regs and Game Rules...... Pay for a hunting Permit , play by the rules. simple. Do it differently, Ya taking the Game from Me (Us) YOU. an its becoming an issue in AU now interms of what animals are surviving an what isnt, where an the back log of big ol deer is dryin up pretty good , compared to how it should look if everyone did it legally....

an we dont have mad cunt heli businesses here... farkk

Well it will bother the 2 guys who got caught with a dead deer n bow n arrows on a farm back of Albury last Monday,middle of the day.Guess they thort the farmer was at the Temuka stock sale,but his neighbor was keeping abd eye on the farm.It will cost them big time.

Hey guys ,
I know this is an old thread , but Im curious about a spot Ive been looking at.

The farmer at this spot actively bullies and scares people off because he believes that people are tresspassing on his land but the land he is talking about is the only access point to said DOC/paper road. I have looked into it with walking access and contacted DOC themself who believes there is a access point there.

I know for a fact that the farmer has tresspassed and called the police on several hunters and the spot is actually quite good because no pressure has been put on the animals there , this is because the farmer has basically scared the shit out of every hunter by abusing them and telling them not tooo come back.

I am wondering what the process is to find out about the ins and outs of this place as talking to the farmer is not an option as he is quite the angry character.

Thoughts and opinions please. Thanks

Give him a couple of crays.

naw , the farmer is a hunter . Crays will not settle this fellow !!

We have the same problem here.
It's the 10% rule.

10% are either idiots or think the rules of society don't apply to them.

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Originally Posted by Jusepy

Hey guys ,
I know this is an old thread , but Im curious about a spot Ive been looking at.

The farmer at this spot actively bullies and scares people off because he believes that people are tresspassing on his land but the land he is talking about is the only access point to said DOC/paper road. I have looked into it with walking access and contacted DOC themself who believes there is a access point there.

I know for a fact that the farmer has tresspassed and called the police on several hunters and the spot is actually quite good because no pressure has been put on the animals there , this is because the farmer has basically scared the shit out of every hunter by abusing them and telling them not tooo come back.

I am wondering what the process is to find out about the ins and outs of this place as talking to the farmer is not an option as he is quite the angry character.

Thoughts and opinions please. Thanks

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ha ha this is a interesting one, one i recently went through..... if youre in the right place, with the right credentials, it will be only a mere interferrance and pain in your ass but otherwise no major infringment.
just be really sure and document your movements.

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Originally Posted by Jusepy

Hey guys ,
I know this is an old thread , but Im curious about a spot Ive been looking at.

The farmer at this spot actively bullies and scares people off because he believes that people are tresspassing on his land but the land he is talking about is the only access point to said DOC/paper road. I have looked into it with walking access and contacted DOC themself who believes there is a access point there.

I know for a fact that the farmer has tresspassed and called the police on several hunters and the spot is actually quite good because no pressure has been put on the animals there , this is because the farmer has basically scared the shit out of every hunter by abusing them and telling them not tooo come back.

I am wondering what the process is to find out about the ins and outs of this place as talking to the farmer is not an option as he is quite the angry character.

Thoughts and opinions please. Thanks

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@Jusepy ,Unformed legal roads ( and formed roads ) are administered by local / district councils not DOC. I would go to the local council for clarification by writing to the roading dept manager. Do not ph or email in the first instance. Council must record and respond to written correspondence. Ask council to explain the legal situation to the adjoining land owner

And when you do go back get dropped off so the farmer doesn't mess with your vehicle

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@Jusepy ,Unformed legal roads ( and formed roads ) are administered by local / district councils not DOC. I would go to the local council for clarification by writing to the roading dept manager. Do not ph or email in the first instance. Council must record and respond to written correspondence. Ask council to explain the legal situation to the adjoining land owner

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yup the local council roading engineer is the person you want - many roads have a point where the council states its "beyond the peg " meaning it is not maintained by council - most Roading Engineers very reluctant to close such roads so thats good for our access - but many farmers complain about stock etc and do occasionally get them closed - but remember they are public land so use them - try to see the farmer if at all possible - or get council to contact them

Is this guys name Murray?