It wasn't an article as such, it was a Letter to the Editor.
https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/07/25/publ...-RUfN5_4zDTTII
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It wasn't an article as such, it was a Letter to the Editor.
https://thebfd.co.nz/2022/07/25/publ...-RUfN5_4zDTTII
I think it is important to understand that Waipakihi road is not necessarily a "PUBLIC" road as such. It is a road formed for public works. It is equally important to understand that it is not owned by Iwi. The two questions myself and others are endeavoring to clarify are -
- Do the public have a legal right to use as access.
- Do Iwi have the right to deny public access.
Clarification is needed and I have no doubt that it will be forthcoming.
As mentioned earlier I have contacted FMC and Megan is going to have a quiet chat to a local Kaumatua first off. Below is a piece from her email to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
"Happy for you to share that FMC are looking at it and provide my email address so people can contact me if they would like to contribute information."
megan.dimozantos@fmc.org.nz
She also mentioned that she has been in touch with the Sika foundation and Cam Speedy and Mike Main are also working on this.
Hi all
The land the road is currently on does belong to the crown due to been taken under the Public Works Act in 1969 for electricity generation, however section 48 of the PWA allows the crown to also further that use if they please. That could be public access along the road, however it would also mean that LINZ the controlling authority would have to also permit the construction of a gate and closing the access. As the road corridor is drawn there is no room for parking along it, and the current area used for parking and access to the Waipakihi River is definitely on private land, so I am sure a solution can be found. Megan from FMC has this information and is currently in discussion with the Trust so I think it would be timely to let her approaches be made and see where to from there.
As to parking; Waipakihi road is a nominal 25 meters wide. I'd imagine development of rudimentary parking would not be a problem.
Where is DOC and their statutory responsibility to foster outdoor recreation and the public use of the conservation estate?
DOC don't seem to gaf if you refer back to page 10 where they replied to @Tahr s email. They confirmed the roads will be closing.
They’re in Wellington CBD politburo with their heads up some dark placesQuote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
Roads are defined under the LGA and there is no ability to restrict legal access unless in specific circumstances which don’t apply here. Be interesting to see nzdas response.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
When the NZFS became DOC back in 1st April 1987 the original name was The Department of Conservation and Recreation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
......That name lasted about 7 months... The Green fairies sprinkled their fairy dust over the name and it dropped the 'Recreation' bit.
Don't forget the same DoC outfit got caught out hiring PD firm to spy on citizens not so long ago.
DOC havent put up much of a fight for this access. Some of the trustees insitu could be a bit grumpy after past dealings with DOC.
Attachment 202672
The gates in and currently bolted back to a concrete block.
Saw this on Facebook yesterday.
Attachment 202681
Thanks for that @Nick.m
Looking at the wording of that FMC post I get the feeling they have become woke like most all entities (OK, I've said it!). The more principled position would be to treat the public's right to access public land along public roads as sacrosanct. The access is not across private land, its BETWEEN parcels of private land. There is ample evidence the road is public land. Unseemly behaviour? Welcome to the real world. If blocking off access to legal road ends was to solve the issue of "unseemly behaviour" then every single roadend in NZ would be blocked off by now.
The Trust is grumpy with DOC re past dealings?? Not the Public's problem.
Yes, the land for Waipakahi road was taken under the Public Work act for construction of the Tongariro Power Project... guess what, plenty of New Zealand farmers, land owners, home owners etc have had their land taken by the Public works act (or equivalent). No ones crying them a river.
This has all the makings of a very slippery slope...
I’m not convinced the road is public.
But either way I think the best option is to start friendly negotiations for access.
The last resort is to get DOC to close the first kilometre or so of the road that is on conservation land, so no one can access the rest of it. Ok
The point at issue is that the road is not owned by the trust.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
They have as much right to block it as I do the road outside my house.
That is, none.
Still nothing from the Maori Land Court. I'm sure they are busy with important matters though, and continue to hope that an answer will be forthcoming in due course.
I'm not convinced of exactly that point. At this stage I have seen no actual evidence that the trust does not own the land the road is on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross Nolan
FMC have posted on FB that they and other groups are talking with the trust about access.
Iv just had a little catch up on this thread. Thanks to those of you who have gone out of their way to get answers and shared their disappointment with the appropriate people in the hopes we can keep these roads open.
I'm posting this so that members can appreciate better the road coverage. It is essentially the same width it's entire length.
I am as appalled as any environmentally minded hunter when coming across rubbish and general debris, but this is an issue for the local governing authority who administer roads in their ward. Any trash and their leavings I have seen in my decades using Waipakihi road has been within the bounds of the road, therefore the responsibility of that organisation.
Attachment 202701
Rangipo Intake Road
Its going to be interesting to see what the signage says.
Have you gone in search of evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access. W
This can only be settled through 2 avenues. Neither include conjecture through here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
1) Negotiated access with the Trust by a statutory or credible organisation.
2) A legal challenge against the Trust for access.
Neither can be entered into without evidence, have you gone in search of evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Neither can be entered into without evidence, have you gone in search of evidence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Of course. It is my job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
There is no unequivocal evidence.
Strong evidence may inform or sway negotiation. Alternatively the weight of public opinion might hold sway despite the lack of evidence. Unlikely.
In the the absence of a negotiated agreement the strength of the evidence will need to be tested in the Courts.
Why do you say that? Speak up about your strategy for a public access outcome?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohawk .308
Attachment 202777
Attachment 202778
Not just hunters and trampers use these roads.
Exactly. Waipakahi Rd is an iconic access point into the Kaimanawas.Quote:
Originally Posted by john m
Yes I have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
Some indicates it isn't public land.
Some indicates it may not be private land.
Some indicates the road may be an easement on the private title (which does not change the ownership, and does not automatically mean the public have right of access).
Websites that show some relevant information don't show all the information needed to find out the answer (e.g the WAMS website).
None of the posts in this thread or the social media posts on this topic have shown evidence of ownership either way.
Well I would say, Tahr, that determining the legal status of the road would be a good place to start rather than suggesting negotiation with a body who may or may not have the legal authority to grant or deny use of this road.
Looking at the wams map about this I couldn’t help to look at the road through poronui, I thought that was private but it’s a public rd, how come that’s shut off🤷*♂️
Yes. Apart from my own family wr have often seen and spoken to others whp are picnicing or simply enjoying the pleasant environments in all flur roads and in particular Rangipo, Tree trunk gorge and Waipakihi. Removing vehicle access will definately exclude families, children and older persons from the Kaimanawa Forest park infact most casual visitors and campers. Be a great loss to thousands if 24/7 vehicle free access is denied.
So tell me how the legal status of the road (and its relevance to access) can be determined without a legal argument in Court? The only possibility outside of Court are arguments for or against in an attempt to gain some negotiation leverage (if one legal opinion appears to have greater weight than another). The Trust will certainly have taken legal advice and will have relied on that in making their decision about access.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sauer
Public opinion and a principled argument (maybe bolstered by a strong legal opinion) is most likely to win the day. "We are right and you are wrong" is unlikely to.
Thanks for the reply. I don't have anything suggesting Waipakihi road is an easement over privately owned land. Would you be willing to share this document with me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
In the case of Poronui, I believe that the public access route and the formed road do not coincide therefore it is public foot access only.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tirau
The maps show the road with its own title number, separate to the trust title number - which is the same on both sides of the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
An easement wouldn't have a separate title.
The maps show the road with its own title number, separate to the trust title number - which is the same on both sides of the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazzh
An easement wouldn't have a separate title.
