Here is a link to an article by Karamojo Bell on Small bore vs Big bore
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webc...ellreduced.pdf
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Here is a link to an article by Karamojo Bell on Small bore vs Big bore
http://www.americanrifleman.org/Webc...ellreduced.pdf
Each generation seem to need to learn these truths all over again.
BIG BORE
Biggest Boor
We light calibre users get it all the time.
I liked the bit where he described running up the elephants leg so he could stand on it's back so he could shoot the other elephants!
I liked the bit where if he could do it all again he would use a 308.
I thought that would appeal to you. He gave the 220 a good plug. Amazing how low the velocities were of the rifles he did use.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Long heavy for calibre projectiles for high sectional density and penetration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon
Was waiting for you to spot that bitQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Would need to be a fairly fast twist one
I liked the advert at the end for a 50lb keg of gunpowder and 5000 Fed primers for $52. Wonder if they do mail order?
Perhaps when you 308rs have finished you could roll off the elephant and let the 223's have a goQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Attachment 33728
Some nose bleeders here to.
Half pound balls of lead lobbed toward over a ton of flesh.
Ridiculous but without that kind of experimentation we would not be where we are today.
Figured our net guns fired weights that totalled well over half a pound and towed a bloody great net as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
I don't have mine here to weigh all the bits.
It was down catching and putting collars on Sika. Hell but they can boot alright.
WHEN MEN WERE MEN AND BOYS STAYED HOME
Attachment 33757
That is commitment!
I still reckon I would feel better with something a bit bigger than a .308!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KCQLwpJX8s
I would feel better leaving him be :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
But this is the whole point of this thread 😉
What if he won't leave you be!
Well as in that situation a brain or spine shot is the only thing that will stop it so providing whatever round has enough penetration it aint going to make any difference what size it is, only how accurately the shot is placed.
was one guy using a shotgun?
I think it is probably a double rifle.
The shot from the PH put him down and the double looked .45 or bigger. A small/medium bore dosent have the energy to stop a charge, the brain is well protected and not that large. Bell was a very good shot and lucky, many ivory hunters did not die off old age.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
If you have enough power a shot that doesn't hit the brain but has enough concussive effect will render it unconscious, calibre size could mean life or death.
Also bear in mind you need to get through up to 80cm of skull to get the brain on a frontal brain shot on a big bull!
Also always take what writers say about themselves with a pinch of salt, bell was an ivory hunter first, so whether he followed up many of his wounded is speculative, I have read accounts that say he left a lot of them in order to shoot more ivory rather than waste time following a single beast.
He was also a bit of a girl with recoil, he would not have owned a tikka .270!
So for what he was doing a smaller calibre would be suitable, if however you are in the business of following up animals your client has wounded in bush with almost zero visibility may I suggest something heavier!
I don't quite know you could say Bell was a girl with recoil, anyone who deliberatly wires the triggers together on a 450/400 double has to know that it is going to recoil!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
Only going what other writers have said of him, I think it was Harry Selby that said he was recoil shy hence his preference for lighter calibres, maybe calling him a girl was a bit exaggerative!😊
Wouldn't Selby be of the wrong generation to have any first hand experience of Bell? Bell died in the 50's while Selby was only starting to make a name for himself.
I think it is fair to say that Bell did much of his hunting in a time with less pressure on the animals which would have given him a bit more leeway in getting closer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Doubling the speed quadruples the energy thus giving an unfair advantage at close ranges to lighter faster bullets. Unless you missed the brain by a few thousandths of an inch calibre is still irrelevant.
Especially if the "missed the brain by a few thousandths of an inch issue" is on one slightly miffed and now really grumpy elephantQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Upping the speed brings other issues of bullet deformation and lack of penetration, it is generally accepted that 2600 fps is as fast as you want to go to for reliable penetration on pachyderms.
Think you will fins a .416 rugby with 400gr is doing about the same as a 220gr .308. So will have almost double the energy.
Trust me, there is a reason it is illegal to hunt the big 3 with anything under .375 h&h.
As velocity increases penetration decreases.
Of course a bigger case has more potential for energy it is just that in the case of a brain shot calibre or bore size is really irrelevant.
Not that I have any wish to ever shoot an elephant I don't doubt that a well placed shot brain or heart would kill very well with the appropriate projectile out of a 308.
Would I deliberately take a 308 to shoot my first elephant? No , if I was to hunt dangerous game I would be taking something like a 416 rigby .
With expanding projectiles. solids are another matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by john m
Anyone that shot as many elephants as Karamojo Bell and died in his bed did know what he was talking about
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon
Yep, but its one man's opinion, nearly all the other great elephant hunters, selous, Taylor, Johnson, hunter to name a few preferred big bores.
Most of them died from othe causes too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Solids distort and deform and lose direction and sometimes tumble.
Depending on construction and velocity, just like soft points,plastic tips HPs etc pencil a straight line or cause a massive deep wound channel or a shallow dinnerplate sized wound on the surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
It all depends on construction and velocity, after all we can manufacture projectiles that will penetrate a foot of hardened steel on 45 degree angle then set fire to whatever is on the other side.
Attachment 33769.
Some of this stuff from Bill Axbeys unpublished manuscript on the great New Zealand elephant Hunter 'Deaf Banks' is amazing. He is whittling down the Kings Herd of Elephant with his bloody old 303 like you wouldn't believe. One of our original poachers I wouldn't be suprized, makes me proud just to read about him.
