elephant
Interesting article on the subject.
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elephant
Interesting article on the subject.
Hell this manuscript is amazing. Banks must be in the Congo now as he is donkey deep in tusks he' has shot from a herd that belonged of the King of Belgium. I can almost hear the crack of the three o and feel the crash as another tusker bites the dust.
All of the big bores are away in the big cites telling the world how they would be doing it if they were out there again. After forty pink gins they will toddle back to their Boma and bleary eyed run a oily rag over the four bore that they would use again if only the elephants would come back close to town like they used to.
Another legendary Ivory hunter that was a proponent of big bores, his interesting theory on "knock out power," just for a bit of balance to the discussion...
John Howard "Pondoro" Taylor (1904 - 1969) | AfricaHunting.com
From what I have read of Taylor, he wasn't much of a gun guy. I would take Walter Bell over him.
Let us remember also that much of the government culling of elephant in the 1970's/80's was done with SLR's and .308 military ammo.
Harry Rayne was another New Zealander from Dunedin who hunted with WDM Bell in the Karamojo around 1907/08, using the .318 Westley Richards - basically the same thing as a .30/06 with heavy bullet.
Really? Have you read African Rifles and Cartridges by John "Pondoro" Taylor?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway
Let us not forget either that Bell had his gunbearer ready with his heavy double for when the SHTF! The 7mm was cheaper to shoot and huntng was business not pleasure for Bell.
Yes I have.
No, Bell didn't have a gun bearer 'ready with a heavy double". I am not sure where you got that from. You should read his books. Neither did Arthur Nueman for example, who used a .303.
Hunting was business for all of these guys, they were shooting for ivory. There were a great many people who shot elephant with .303, the 6.5x54, 7x57, .318 WR and so on. And more recently the cullers using the 7.62 NATO. All with solid military FMJ ammo. (The .303 load they used was the old round nose 215 grain solid, from the Boer War era.)
But think about it, there is not much difference between a .450 caliber 500 grain bullet and a 173 grain .284 caliber bullet when you compare it to a seven ton elephant. The only thing that is going to shock an elephant or 'stop' it in a charge is a howitzer, or a bullet of any size that penetrates his brain or breaks his spine.
But this is an argument that has been going on for a hundred years.
Don't get me wrong though, I would love to have an old school double 450/500.
I must apologise, have just consulted my copies and realised that it was Selous that I was thinking of having heavy backup with gunbearers, you are quite right, Bell did not use gunbearers.
He was known for using a stepladder to get the angle right in some instances though!
The discussion while interesting is moot anyway as it is illegal to use the calibres he recommends nowdays. I suppose it will rage for another hundred years nevertheless!
Yes, it is illegal today in nearly every African country, but fascinating history.
(Selous did his elephant hunting with a black powder 4 bore smooth bore: when it went off it used to give him a nose bleed! He got a .303 towards the end of his life and commented that he would have used it for everything if he had had one earlier.)
I am always tempted to get a .375 Holland and Holland, just so I can have an "African" gun. One in a Ruger No.1 single shot would be appropriate.
My favourite story of Selous' is when his percussion cap on his muzzle loader (I forget which one it was at the time) failed to fire, on handing it back to his gunbearer the bearer promptly put another handfull of powder and projectile on the existing one, replaced the cap and handed it back.
The force on firing it spun him around and flung him backwards, split the stock and his cheek and he couldn't raise his right arm for 6 months after!
Carried on hunting though!
Tough bastards!
After that he specced his rifles with the reinforced steel shrouds along the pistol grip that are famous on the farqhuarson falling block rifles he also used.
Do it, I regret selling mine, thay are awesome! Looking at a .416 Taylor or 10.75x68 on an Oberndorf 98 action for my next big bore for something different!Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway
I always wondered why the Selous Scouts were named thus.
There was a Mauser Oberndorf 10.75 x 68 on Ausguns a few months back, was in rough condition but sold for only Aus$500. I reckon a .404 Jeffrey would be the bees knees, would go nicely with my Mauser 9.3x62 and my Brno 7x57.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Whilst I don't have any text from the person who bequeathed the following to me, I do have a verbal account of what transpired. Given that he died when I was about 10 I'll attempt to recount what was told to me.
My great uncle Frederik Willem Jordaan (my Ouma's=grandmother's) brother was hunting in Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia) in 1950. He chanced upon a lioness and cubs and was attacked. He was carrying a Lee Enfield .303 (what particular type I couldn't tell you) and as it charged at him, he managed to fire but it wasn't a fatal shot. In the process of working the bolt, the lioness was upon him.
All he could do was bring the rifle across his face to protect himself but he did get swiped in the process and as long as I knew him, he bore a heavy scar across his forehead which ran down across his nose and cheek. I can't recall exactly what happened thereafter but I think one of the gun bearers managed to inflict the kill shot and the below was taken from the carcass as a memento - something I treasure.
Attachment 33863
That is a good story and with a great momento. Look at the shape of that tooth, no wonder they do such damage.
Its not uncommon to read a story of African hunting that ends with 'And my gunbearer scraped the cat of my hide before he/she could make too many holes in it with a shot from the double rifle he had just finished loading'
Unless you were Harry Wolhuter one rarely had any chance of surviving if they didn't have support.
The story of Wolhuter is a South African classic which I read as a young lad in more detail than the link provides. He was a "meneer" (boss).
Not all.........I have a few solids in my collection that I have removed from elephant skulls that are that perfect you could reload them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Thanks Grame but it's actually a claw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon
It was interesting that when over there I found that Bell did not have a great name. I have met a few elderly experienced hunters in Africa who did not like Bell at all. I was told that he would regularly shoot a lot of the elephants in the herd in the knees with the 6.5 and go back and finish them off later. No matter how big you are you cannot run far after your knees have been taken out. He apparently did not write about those actions in his books.................
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudu
Quite right, was referring to when being pushed too fast like out of a .460 weatherby, which had huge issues at inception and the factory load was actually reduced to stop this.
Well blow me down. A tooth on a swivel arm. It looked like a big sharks tooth to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan
Regardless of what you shoot out of it that gun is a bitch to shoot!Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
I have been delving into this box of papers of Bill Axbey's who wrote extensively about the NZ elephant hunter Deaf Banks.
There are letters from University's, Museums in both Africa Europe and Britain. Copies of Banks Letters that Bill says were trotted half way the length of Africa in a cleft stick. Photos, maps letters from school friends and his old school. Photos and sales brochures of guns of the trade and all that stuff.
Banks fought in Africa in the First World War. Besides the tally he may have acquired in this conflict, Banks when interviewed said he had shot around 3000 elephants. That is one hell of a lot of elephants. I have worked with a few shooters that have shot that many deer and I know that is a hell of a lot of deer.
Yet only girls own that particular gun and cal:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudattack
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The depth and breadth of your creativity is boundless mate! How do you keep coming up with all this new humour?Quote:
Originally Posted by BRADS
New Humor or old facts? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
Same old crap :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby
