Thread: Lead bullets and their risk to human health

On the way home from work today I listened to this podcast from "Our Chainging World" on RNZ:

Lead bullets and their risk to human health

Humanity has had a long and vexed relationship with the element lead. The problem is the stuff is terribly useful – and terribly toxic. Think Roman water pipes, lead paint, lead petrol. Now, new research is adding to a global body of work showing that there are more downsides to using lead in ammunition than we previously realised. Our Changing World’s Alison Ballance is in Nelson to find out more.

Woke ,PC feelgood bullshit being pushed by global wish for less small arms in civilian hands. If the ammunition is more expensive and harder to get.less people will buy it,afford it.if it kills less efficiently,more people will be put off using it and give up hunting. If it's deemed inhumain at killing,far easier to legislate it's banning. There you go,all the conspiracy wrapped up nicely. I shall continue to use lead ammunition for as long as possibly can do so.

It's interesting, the alternatives at this point aren't much better. Copper is a known carcinogenic for a lot of species for example (and not just when it's travelling at mach fuc). I think the main thing is to inspect the meat carefully, and if in doubt about a chunk (close proximity to a wound channel, obvious bruising or hydraulic damage) then err on the side of caution and discard...

The researchers are both hunters in NZ

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Woke ,PC feelgood bullshit being pushed by global wish for less small arms in civilian hands. If the ammunition is more expensive and harder to get.less people will buy it,afford it.if it kills less efficiently,more people will be put off using it and give up hunting. If it's deemed inhumain at killing,far easier to legislate it's banning. There you go,all the conspiracy wrapped up nicely. I shall continue to use lead ammunition for as long as possibly can do so.

Not sure that's entirely fair - I know of a couple of lifetime smallbore shooters that have had to change their ideas due to very high lead levels in their testing (both blood and other testing). That was deemed to be purely exposure from indoor target shooting as I understand it - back in the day there was no dust control and the end of a decent shooting session the range was murky with dust haze. If we all went over to alternative ammo, the price would come down I expect due to volumes.

Originally Posted by No.3

(close proximity to a wound channel, obvious bruising or hydraulic damage) then err on the side of caution and discard...

The podcast talks about fragments visible on x-ray 30cm from the wound channel, also about the lead tested lead content in minced meat where there was none visible with x-ray

https://www.arphs.health.nz/assets/U...1-20181114.pdf

Originally Posted by NZBeeMan

The podcast talks about fragments visible on x-ray 30cm from the wound channel, also about the lead tested lead content in minced meat where there was none visible with x-ray

Headshots rule.

We ate small game taken with a shotgun regularly when I was growing up. Used to stack the odd lead shot pellet on the side of the dinner plate. Maybe I have something else to blame all my otherwise age related health misfortunes on after all. Wonder if ACC will buy that one....?

I did say conspiracy all wrapped up did I not??? Make up your own mind but do not get suckered into feel good marketing hype. Non lead ammunition is NOT as effective as it's cup n core brethren. Steel shotgun ammunition has come a long way in last 20 years but it still not as good as lead was....I happily use steel shot now but every single time I shoot lead over land I'm surprised again how much better it is... But maybe it's the lead poison eating what's left of brain cells.

When I was a Gunnery instructor, we had bloods taken annually and they were measured for all the nasty stuff including lead. Not once did I hear of or know about anyone whose blood exceeded the recommended exposure levels for lead or anything else. This was the 80's and 90's before the $$ restrictions really bit in. The exposure was frequent from 7.62 belt to 76mm QF and all sorts in between. On a average CVR(T) gunners course the round count for 76mm averaged 64 rounds (all natures) and up to 12 belts 4B/1T per student, most courses were 12 students maybe six courses a year. Then there were courses such as the MG initially 30cal then to 7.62 and .50 cal. The same risks were also in units as a part of the annual training activities, exercises supporting other units etc.

Exposure was from standing on the vehicle behind the turret as a safety supervisor, being in the turret commanding, loading 76mm, coax and doing the weapon drills stoppages etc. then cleaning the weapons typically daily for up to five days.

It turned out (early 90's) the greatest risk was inhalation of gases from all crew served weapon systems from firing and being in a semi-confined space, a lot of coin was spent trying to resolve that. Not aware of anyone who has become sick because of it, and I am not saying that there hasn't and that there is no risk. There are lots of ways you can be exposed. Simple hygiene like washing and changing your clothes after a range session does make a difference, especially washing your hands before ingesting food and drink goes a long way and we rigidly enforced that, and all range participants would wear overalls that could be easily swapped at the Q store. The MOH website does have some good guidance on lead exposure.

It is like there is a risk in everything we do, be aware of it and manage it appropriately.

Lead cast projectiles and for that matter shot pellets pose virtually no risk I bet, simply because they don't disintegrate on impact. Even rifle cup n core bullets at moderate velocity rarely shed fine lead through meat even after hitting bone. My 9.3 for example leaves an exit hole only about 2-3 times the size of the entry even after going through bone. The swift on the other hand would fill a large target with lead vapour I suspect but it's easy to see what's not worth taking to eat. I've wandered a bit but what I'm trying to say is if your aware of the expansion characteristics your ammunition and the speed range the bullets expected to perform within, then the risk if any is manageable. Or at least that's where I think I was going with this.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8414278/

Abstract

Aims: Following detection of symptomatic lead toxicity in two users of an indoor small bore rifle range, we studied users of several similar facilities to determine if significant recreational lead exposure occurred.

Method: Red cell lead levels were measured at the end of a six month (winter) indoor shooting season and prior to commencement of shooting in the following year. Lead levels in air and dust sampled at one range were also measured.

Results: REd cell lead levels were elevated at the end of season (mean 2.64 mumol/L) and lower (mean 1.60 mumol/L) in the preseason samples. The average red cell lead level of the male shooters was 2.4 times normal and is comparable to the levels found in many occupationally exposed groups. Maximum air lead levels were 210 micrograms/m3, more than 2 times the Department of Labour OSH workplace exposure standard TWA of 100 micrograms/m3. Analysis of dust samples showed that dust at this range contained 24% to 36% lead.

Conclusion: Although the mean time spent shooting was only 70 minutes per week the blood lead levels are similar to those previously reported for full time instructors at pistol ranges. This data confirms that lead exposure in recreational users of indoor small bore rifle ranges is a significant problem.

Weigh a recovered projectile...simple maths tells how much or little can possibly be in animal....somewhere.

Originally Posted by NZBeeMan

The researchers are both hunters in NZ

I listened to it on the way home too Beeman - it was pretty interesting.

Jeez, that has me convinced. I was already pretty paranoid about lead. I generally don’t take front legs of deer Ive shoulder shot, just not worth it for me when it gets fed to the kids and other family members. I really want a clear conscience when giving meat away. Yeah micro particles of lead travelling 30cm all around the wound channel is pretty scary. Even back straps might not be entirely safe. Have bought some copper projos to try at the range, but haven’t got around to it. Good motivation to get onto it. Im not too concerned about killing power, most of my hunting is within 100m a good copper bullet going full tit should get the job done fine but will see how I go. .223 is the new deer hunting cal apparently so a “big” cal in copper should do just fine.