Lead bullets and their risk to human health

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Originally Posted by Rushy

Thanks. I had forgotten about putting slug gun slugs in my mouth until you mentioned it.

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That'll be the lead poisoning. It does affect the brain first

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Originally Posted by gimp

That'll be the lead poisoning. It does affect the brain first

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Ha ha ha ha good on ya.

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Originally Posted by No.3

More than once, in tents, caravans, boats, shacks, caves, mines and houses. But, IF (and I'll be the first to admit that this is unlikely due to the level of idiot that usually tries to operate these things) - IF the precautions are followed there is a much reduced risk of using gas burners indoors. And most of that revolves around the long-term effects of increased moisture levels which carry combustion by products into the living environment.

If you deliberately operate a gas burning appliance indoors for testing purposes without following the safety precautions you are either trying to rig the test results, don't know what you are doing or deliberately doing it to highlight the issues and how unsafe the practice is.

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That was the game. They were scare mongering.
A gas stove has never been considered unsafe in an average kitchen. All in the name of profit. They were also recommending atmospheric monitoring in your home. What a fkn joke. :lol:

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Originally Posted by HILLBILLYHUNTERS

I will say it again , as kids we used to have a mouth full of lead slugs most of the school holidays and more . I are now in my
70's and haven't turned nutty yet , nor my mates .

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Ah....but how do you know you're not crazy? I mean I think I'm responding to a post on a message board but theres a fair to even possibility that I'm dressed in white, staring at a wall in a padded cell saying I LOVE LEAD! I LOVE LEAD! I LOVE LEAD! Thats the thing about being crazy, you don't know you're crazy! :pacman:

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Originally Posted by Tahr

I cant find a single scientific peer reviewed research finding that says lead in bullets is not dangerous. A quick search brings up hundreds that says it is.

E.g. https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/...Ammunition.pdf

I expect that there is something in all of this.

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You do get that many search engines, Google in particular, operate on a confirmation bias protocol. I'm not saying lead isn't bad for you but we're all subject to confirmation bias from within as well as from without

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

That was the game. They were scare mongering.
A gas stove has never been considered unsafe in an average kitchen. All in the name of profit. They were also recommending atmospheric monitoring in your home. What a fkn joke. :lol:

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There is always a meta game. You choose if you look for the good, the bad or the conspiracy. It might just be that it was about public good - encouraging people to keep their tight cooking spaces ventilated. The many poor sods who are dead from carbon monoxide poisoning could have done with that advice.

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Originally Posted by HILLBILLYHUNTERS

I will say it again , as kids we used to have a mouth full of lead slugs most of the school holidays and more . I are now in my
70's and haven't turned nutty yet , nor my mates .

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Won't do any harm, might just make you feel a bit sluggish

If you are into hunting and shooting, the most lead poisoning you will get is from handling fired cartridge cases, ie reloading ammunition. The soot and carbon is contaminated with lead.

Compared to the miniscule and vague risk of possible lead ingestion from eating wild meats, handling cartridge cases is a definate risk - unless you simply wash your hands after doing it. Let us remember that you cant get lead poisoning unless you actually eat it.

Also, lead poisoning is not cumulative - if you get some lead in your system, your body will clean it out after a months time.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Yeah there's no safe level of lead for human consumption. Try not to eat it.


I manage the risk while continuing to use lead bullets by not taking meat from close to the likely fragmentation zone, and sometimes head or neck shooting animals. Using smaller bullets also helps - there's simply less lead around to begin with. Maybe this explains the .270 people. Many of the studies on the subject are a bit misleading - while lead consumption certainly is a risk, mitigation by specific butchery practises appears to be really effective at reducing the risk of exposure. Look at Hampton 2023 - read between the lines - very low lead in Kangaroo/Wallaby meat - because they are all headshot, so the bits exposed to fragmentation are not eaten. The factor by which the venison mince exceeded guidelines was minute in comparison to the quail. The butchery approach of those that donated the venison mince isn't known - was it "right up to the hole" from some? There are a number of other studies that make this abundantly clear

"The highest concentrations were found in samples from edible meat from the area close to the wound channel (max 3442 mg Pb/kg), followed by the saddle (max 1.14 mg Pb/kg) and with the lowest levels in the haunch (max 0.09 mg Pb/kg)"

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30412876/


The cost and performance of non-lead alternatives simply doesn't match lead in many ways so I'm balancing things as I see fit.


It would be interesting to get a blood lead test. I eat a lot of bluefin tuna though so I'm probably packed to the gills with methylmercury


While lead is a real risk to humans and wildlife especially scavenging avians, there are also a few researchers around the world who have made a career out of finding "anti-lead" research to be a lucrative path to funding and dominate the field, so while there is valid research to be done there are often issues, bias and omissions in the existing peer-reviewed literature. Unfortunately peer-review is far from a foolproof process as anyone in science should know, the quality of reviewer comment can be highly variable. Jordan Hampton appears to be one of these and has released a series of papers that while peer-reviewed, are of pretty questionable value.

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Nonsense. You watch too much woke TV. If that was the case Lead would be banned and we wouldn't be digging it up. lead acid batteries, lead dive weights, lead fishing sinkers, none of them would exist.

Dont know about NZ, but workers/employees in AU are considered safe and healthy with low levels of lead in their blood. Regular testing is required. At a trigger point workers are removed from potential exposure for a few months until their lead blood levels return to normal Note, no medical intervention is required. The body removes the lead naturally.

These are full time workers exposed to lead daily. Yes, they are required to, follow procedures, wear PPE, use mechanical equipment such as extraction systems to reduce exposure. But none the less many have low levels of lead in the blood almost constantly.

Lead exposure is easy to manage. Young children are a different matter.

A large part of the problem is people repeating that nonsense on the www without checking the facts or having any knowledge on the matter.

And I'll add, similar nonsense is spruked about CO. Yes, It can be dangerous, but is exceptionally easy to manage.

I think its about time society in general, especially politicians are educated to understand that life is full of risks. Nothing is 100% safe. The exposure of lead should be very low on their list of priorities.

I don't own a TV. Eat all the lead you like then.

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Nonsense. You watch too much woke TV. If that was the case Lead would be banned and we wouldn't be digging it up. lead acid batteries, lead dive weights, lead fishing sinkers, none of them would exist.

Dont know about NZ, but workers/employees in AU are considered safe and healthy with low levels of lead in their blood. Regular testing is required. At a trigger point workers are removed from potential exposure for a few months until their lead blood levels return to normal Note, no medical intervention is required. The body removes the lead naturally.

These are full time workers exposed to lead daily. Yes, they are required to, follow procedures, wear PPE, use mechanical equipment such as extraction systems to reduce exposure. But none the less many have low levels of lead in the blood almost constantly.

Lead exposure is easy to manage. Young children are a different matter.

A large part of the problem is people repeating that nonsense on the www without checking the facts or having any knowledge on the matter.

And I'll add, similar nonsense is spruked about CO. Yes, It can be dangerous, but is exceptionally easy to manage.

I think its about time society in general, especially politicians are educated to understand that life is full of risks. Nothing is 100% safe. The exposure of lead should be very low on their list of priorities.

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I'm inclined to agree with you Oldbloke. Although I'm not disputing lead being bad in our system.
But there are a whole pile of people out there that have turned scaremongering in to a very lucrative business opportunity.
If we read the contents of numerous items on supermarket shelves, according to some, a number of those ingredients will turn us belly up in no time.
I know people who think smelling a coffee bean is going to cause life long issues.

Surely you mean Life without the smell or taste of coffee will cause life long issues

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Surely you mean Life without the smell or taste of coffee will cause life long issues

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Marty, you’d have lead in your veins, much like me. Started with a mouth full lead paint off the cot, then learning to burn lead paint off the house with an acetylene torch and scraper, then the early teens, with a mouth full of slugs.
Then into the big time, reloading! Casting lead projectiles, without correct ventilation and learning to burn them was a few years away.
In my 60s I became a bit more cautious, 15 years later and I don’t care.
I have a mate, now in his 80s, makes my effort of lead poisoning fade into insignificance. Got tested for lead poisoning every year, gave up testing in his 70s, never had a positive result.

We've met on a number of occasions, even though I must contain a small amount of lead due to the above activities I consider myself to be perfectly normal. I'm sure you will agree with that self diagnosis.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

We've met on a number of occasions, even though I must contain a small amount of lead due to the above activities I consider myself to be perfectly normal. I'm sure you will agree with that self diagnosis.

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Well I've just thought of something.
Remember me harping on about how well you soaked up the recoil of that 505 of Friwis at Taranaki?
If Maca is right and you have all this lead in your veins, you are basically a walking lead sled.

I don't recall you praising my "uprightness" after firing it, but I do recall the small ginger chap that it blew backwards so he lost control and fumbled it all the way to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Nonsense. You watch too much woke TV. If that was the case Lead would be banned and we wouldn't be digging it up. lead acid batteries, lead dive weights, lead fishing sinkers, none of them would exist.

Dont know about NZ, but workers/employees in AU are considered safe and healthy with low levels of lead in their blood. Regular testing is required. At a trigger point workers are removed from potential exposure for a few months until their lead blood levels return to normal Note, no medical intervention is required. The body removes the lead naturally.

These are full time workers exposed to lead daily. Yes, they are required to, follow procedures, wear PPE, use mechanical equipment such as extraction systems to reduce exposure. But none the less many have low levels of lead in the blood almost constantly.

Lead exposure is easy to manage. Young children are a different matter.

A large part of the problem is people repeating that nonsense on the www without checking the facts or having any knowledge on the matter.

And I'll add, similar nonsense is spruked about CO. Yes, It can be dangerous, but is exceptionally easy to manage.

I think its about time society in general, especially politicians are educated to understand that life is full of risks. Nothing is 100% safe. The exposure of lead should be very low on their list of priorities.

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I recall somewhere that blood lead is the easy way to measure lead in the body - but not the only way the body accumulates lead. It also accumulates in the long bones during growth, and in parts of the body that don't readily exchange it with the blood (which is why it takes so long for the blood lead levels to drop as the 'slow tissues' release it back into the blood). This is one of the reasons for the current popularity of anti-lead - the effects on kids who are laying down a lot of calcium for the formation of bones (lead being a similar metal element to calcium I think is the order of battle there).

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

We've met on a number of occasions, even though I must contain a small amount of lead due to the above activities I consider myself to be perfectly normal. I'm sure you will agree with that self diagnosis.

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We are lucky it goes to your feet and not your head, I have enough troubles with my neck.
I’ve only met one person with lead poisoning, we were shooting .22 at Te Puke every week. He said that’s where he got it.
I still think it was an excuse not to mix with people like me. He came right very quickly after leaving

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Nonsense. You watch too much woke TV. If that was the case Lead would be banned and we wouldn't be digging it up. lead acid batteries, lead dive weights, lead fishing sinkers, none of them would exist.

Dont know about NZ, but workers/employees in AU are considered safe and healthy with low levels of lead in their blood. Regular testing is required. At a trigger point workers are removed from potential exposure for a few months until their lead blood levels return to normal Note, no medical intervention is required. The body removes the lead naturally.

These are full time workers exposed to lead daily. Yes, they are required to, follow procedures, wear PPE, use mechanical equipment such as extraction systems to reduce exposure. But none the less many have low levels of lead in the blood almost constantly.

Lead exposure is easy to manage. Young children are a different matter.

A large part of the problem is people repeating that nonsense on the www without checking the facts or having any knowledge on the matter.

And I'll add, similar nonsense is spruked about CO. Yes, It can be dangerous, but is exceptionally easy to manage.

I think its about time society in general, especially politicians are educated to understand that life is full of risks. Nothing is 100% safe. The exposure of lead should be very low on their list of priorities.

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I don't know about here, but in the UK when I was working with Pb we were tested regularly, and moved to another line (and given a re-education) if our blood levels climbed. Just like you have explained.

Non the less I found the RNZ piece an interesting read.

The surest indicator of a studies findings is the source of funding.

People tend to try to not upset the paymaster.

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Originally Posted by Ross Nolan

The surest indicator of a studies findings is the source of funding.

People tend to try to not upset the paymaster.

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You're right.

I've attended a lot of Resource Consent hearings where "independent expert" witnesses give contradictory evidence on the same subject. The expert advice closely matches the person's paying position.

Plumbers used to get a pint of milk each day when doing lead work. Even when I was an apprentice carpenter in the 80's our company plumber got the milk when lead working. That was in England with an old school village building company

If you do get some lead in your system, your body will clean it out in a month. Lead is not cumulative.

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Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Plumbers used to get a pint of milk each day when doing lead work. Even when I was an apprentice carpenter in the 80's our company plumber got the milk when lead working. That was in England with an old school village building company

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Used to be the thing for welding Galv coated metal too - although I think it has basically been debunked now and PAPR or extraction machinery is the preferred way now.

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Originally Posted by John Duxbury

If you do get some lead in your system, your body will clean it out in a month. Lead is not cumulative.

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I used to think this way too, although a person I met recently was saying they had issues with getting rid of the lead out of their system. They were saying that the exposure they had was over a considerable period of time, and it meant that it took longer than they were told it would take to get their levels down. I expect there was some more detail to that story that I didn't get, but from that sample of one I'm not sure it's a given that every person can clear elevated lead levels in a month?

as a former psychiatric nurse i recall nursing quite a few people who had suffered brain damage due to lead. salient points -a couple old time plumbers /drainlayers had over decades been consistently exposed to very high lead levels on a daily basis another 3 i can recall were born to parents at least one of whom again was a consistently exposed to very high levels of lead and ingested the same the4 damage to the person was considered to have occurred in the uteris as the feotus progressed through its developmental stages-these people were profoundly impacted .Whilst i agree lead is bloody dangerous occasional exposure or ingestion of minute quantities could in a lot of cases be Normalised .BTW FYI I nursed at least two old cobblers whod suffered brain damage through constant exposure to hot pots of old time cobblers glue mixes . Me -I get quite preturbed when i see cycling cyril or peddling priscilla gaily trundling along with infants toddlers strapped to the back of the family bicycle with their wee faces at the level of bus truck and car exhausts do our greenies ever consider that??

Yes, children are another matter. They are at risk even if the exposure is very low. This is because their brain is still developing.
@kotuku the people you talk about had high levels of exposure DAILY for many years.

Hunters are exposed perhaps a dozen times a year. Obviously this will vary. You can't compare.

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Yes, children are another matter. They are at risk even if the exposure is very low. This is because their brain is still developing.
@kotuku the people you talk about had high levels of exposure DAILY for many years.

Hunters are exposed perhaps a dozen times a year. Obviously this will vary. You can't compare.

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you seem to have misread my post .if one is to take your statement you cant compare my interpretation is you in effect are saying what i was ie casual or minute exposure to very small doses of lead is not overly significant .lead ,unlike cyanide or such agents is not an instantaneous killer ,in that is really requires a constant exposure to very high levels (read toxic) for the human body to ingest sufficient for it to pursue its deadly mission .

I was told recently that in certain times of the development of a child they are at much higher risk of even minute exposure to chemicals and not just lead - things like flouride can be dangerous as well and this is one of the reasons we are getting so much kickback to the requirement for councils to add flouride to water. There are times when unborn kids are especially vulnerable in the womb to getting chemicals running across from the mother, which is a bit of a pest as it's much easier to manage risk when the risk is the same all the time!

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Hunters are exposed perhaps a dozen times a year. Obviously this will vary.

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What is the basis for this statement?

I eat venison several times a week, if I were not cautious about my butchery practises, I would be consuming lead several times a week.

Only when you ate the "leady" bits every time, or if you have adopted the advice given me on a buffalo hunt. Shoot, shoot again then again and then once more.

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Originally Posted by gimp

What is the basis for this statement?

I eat venison several times a week, if I were not cautious about my butchery practises, I would be consuming lead several times a week.

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And I suspect that is where the real risks are, people that eat wild / shot meat several times a week and don't take care to minimize possible lead contamination.

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Originally Posted by gimp

What is the basis for this statement?

I eat venison several times a week, if I were not cautious about my butchery practises, I would be consuming lead several times a week.

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That's my point. Because you are carefull your exposure is low. If you were careless it would be high.

Edit to clarify.
When I say "exposed" means it is entering the body.

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Only when you ate the "leady" bits every time, or if you have adopted the advice given me on a buffalo hunt. Shoot, shoot again then again and then once more.

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Spot on.

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Originally Posted by kotuku

as a former psychiatric nurse i recall nursing quite a few people who had suffered brain damage due to lead. salient points -a couple old time plumbers /drainlayers had over decades been consistently exposed to very high lead levels on a daily basis another 3 i can recall were born to parents at least one of whom again was a consistently exposed to very high levels of lead and ingested the same the4 damage to the person was considered to have occurred in the uteris as the feotus progressed through its developmental stages-these people were profoundly impacted .Whilst i agree lead is bloody dangerous occasional exposure or ingestion of minute quantities could in a lot of cases be Normalised .BTW FYI I nursed at least two old cobblers whod suffered brain damage through constant exposure to hot pots of old time cobblers glue mixes . Me -I get quite preturbed when i see cycling cyril or peddling priscilla gaily trundling along with infants toddlers strapped to the back of the family bicycle with their wee faces at the level of bus truck and car exhausts do our greenies ever consider that??

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@kotuku reading this again, I'm unsure what your point is. We all know that high exposure levels over many years will cause brain damage.

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

@kotuku reading this again, I'm unsure what your point is. We all know that high exposure levels over many years will cause brain damage.

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my points are quite clear maybe you are overdue for a visit to to your optometrist .im out .

Attachment 262342 Recent The Adventurer fishing and hunting freebee rag.

At the risk of hurting people’s feeling wouldn’t it make sense to get your blood tested before panicking or dismissing this research outright?

Our household meat consumption would be about 95% wild game plus we handload and shoot frequently. I had bloods done a couple of years back and they came back in the normal range for lead (whatever that means). I admit we are often spoilt enough to only take the choice cuts often leaving whole shoulders on the carcass.

I will be looking at how to get the kids tested before jumping to conclusions but as an adult male this is all a bit.. meh..

As an aside a diet with a high percentage of primarily Apex predator fish species (snapper, hapuka, shark etc) has previously been associated with elevated mercury levels. Mercury isn't exactly a vital trace element either.

a minute study triggered by the activitie of one man eventually extrapolated to testing of 44 samples of meat .Anyone hazard a guess how much wild game meat is taken in NZ every week?????
Id be more convinced if it were a study with a wide sample field over a period of 1-3years to gain a more accurate picture .

Out of 44 samples of minced game meat, basically randomly delivered 21 returned levels higher than that recommended for consumption.

That's actually statistically significant and concerning and definitely should trigger further study. I for one will be a lot more careful about how close I get to the shocked meat and making sure that I don't end up being a tight wad and taking spattered stuff to mince it. I was pretty careful before, but now it will be a definite check.

One thing I'm wondering now is how many of our pooches are running on lead supplements, I know one guy that takes everything good for himself and anything around the shot isn't wasted it's dog tucker...