The reshuffle may have got rid the silly fool Mallard but there is a new Conservation minister and its not great news in my opinion.
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The reshuffle may have got rid the silly fool Mallard but there is a new Conservation minister and its not great news in my opinion.
@Spanners can you move this to off topic ?
Why? No politics in the Off Topic section and this certainly relates to deer, tahr, chamois....Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogfeatures
Fair enough.
Can’t see anything changing with Doc, regardless of who’s the minister actually.
It’s become a bloated bureaucracy, top heavy with idealists, and frontline staff retired and replaced ( inefficiently ) with volunteers
Nothing bad to say about the rangers working the frontline, but they’re drowning.
It needs a new strong CE, and then to decide what actually it’s role is.
Like all bureaucracies it rolls on regardless of which minister is nominally in charge.
And if past performance is anything to go by, the new minister will most certainly not be in chargeQuote:
Originally Posted by Frogfeatures
Kiri is a hunter and had already earned respect from many hunters. The new minister lost respect in her last position from many in the police force. Time will tell but I think those individuals in Doc that are anti introduced animals are going to find it easier to get their way.
Surely this has a better fit with the last thread post: "Turkeys":omg:
BS she did a guided hunt to buy kudos and PR with the anti doc folks amongst us hunters was nothing more then a pr stunt that people fell for sadlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
Introduced animals are going to get hammered irrespective of who is minister. Because it is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
We are at a decades long peak of ungulate population in most environments. The deer numbers in the central North Island need to be seen to be believed. Hawkes Bay ditto. Most of the sensible guys down south are reporting the same.
Sometimes you have to take a long view on matters like this and stop protecting short-term sport interests. I can take you to places in the central north island where you can walk all day and barely touch a branch in the understory of regenerative native. It’s fucked.
A balanced perspective is required.
Maybe you should have seen KA's Facebook post 5th June. Table full of freshly butchered wild venison.
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I think she listened to hunters voices more than any precious minister in the last few year few years.
I have friends in DOC and they enjoyed what I think they considered a more open 2 way conversation that KA allowed compared to Sage before her.
She has been very vocal in support of many hunter led conservation efforts and has been open to leasing with hunters including such efforts as the tahr foundation management and Luke sumner deer control that's more that any conservation minister from the last decade. Who's you better option? She has to have been the best conservation minister for hunters as a whole. As much as I don't lean towards labour I'd rather her than almost any of the national party and she's sure as shit better than any greens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
KA was a good Conservation Minister, she walked her talk. I was gutted for her when she went down with cervical cancer, and impressed when she bounced back. But now gutted to have lost her from this portfolio. However none of this changes what is already well underway in terms of ungulate control planning, much of which was finessed under KA’s stewardship.
Read up on the Raukumara project (her backyard) if you are still having difficulty understanding.
public backlash (hunters mostly) nailed tharmeddon as far as im aware and a chopper trip for afew people to shoot 127 hinds instead of improving access to the region like i dont know getting the locked gate over the legal access route taken down so people canQuote:
Originally Posted by Stocky
access the region anytime and hunt and harvest all year round not just 1 bomb up and that should keep em happy. Access is key to controlling animal numbers no one is going to walk 20km+ just to shoot a meat animal or not many anyway. Money would be better
spent putting access into some of the spots with higher animal numbers instead we will just do the same shit oh hunters aren't shooting hinds so they breed up causing damage, 1080 drops every few years - rinse and repeat. DOC should own and run helicopters
and shooters and use where needed/necessary while employing 100's or 1000's of trappers, wardens, track cutters, hut builders etc get men back in the hills or even put a tally on deer tails would be better then what they currently do
Doc need alot more in funding to make a change and do something more then the shit they have been doing which isnt working as we are seeing, build tracks, huts, access roads into new regions hire 1000's of kiwis who would love to work outdoors in gods own
making it accessible and habitable(huts, tracks, toilets, campsites)
Lol the RHA is easy as anywhere to get into there's never been a shortage of hunters there's it's hunters with there heads up there assess that lead to it. Access is hardly an issue. Access also destroys the remoteness of the backcountry. Nz has amazing access we as hunters need to accept that we can shoot and not fully recover animals when in areas it's not feasible. Plus the only true way to control animals is out of choppers unfortunately we let them just have free reign to do whatever which means targetting stags and leaving populations to do whatever they like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Also comparing something like improving access which is super expensive vs a few chopper rides is a bit disingenuous as the cost difference is huge. What that does show is the willingness to use alternative options to search and destroy.
As for tahr I mean the use of foot hunters for control in high density areas rather than choppers shooting indiscriminately. Not the original tahr culls which yes 100% was the tahr foundation, nzda etc that saved our arses there.
Your solution to populations don't really make sense as putting a tally leads to what all commercial hunting does which is overhunting and low populations which screws rec hunters. If we really focused on control then aerial search and destroy is the most cost effective method by far but that's no good for anyone really.
Doc have heaps of issues but Kiri as a conservation minister atleast things didnt regress and if anything there was some collaboration.
The ideal situation in my books would be to see deer managed for a population that balances hunter experience, conservation efforts, and hunter opportunities. By focusing control to females in areas of high density.
All you had to do to be in on that well organised cull you quoted was to go to your local nzda meeting. Are you a member?Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
Nope have tried contacting Canty NZDA 3 times never received a reply about how to joinQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Seems a pretty common theme from some branches of the NZDA and creates the impression of a 'boys club'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
The cull in Lake Sumner RHA was inefficient and in today's language had a pretty big carbon footprint. A R22 and an experinced crew could have done the same thing in a couple of hours. The foot cull that went on won't work long term and should be done properly and efficiently from the start otherwise recreational hunters are setting themselves up to have egg on their face again.
Since I moved South I pay my dues etc through Head Office. Much easier ... If you have any questions, contact us at membership@deerstalkers.org.nz or call at +64 4-499 6163.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I copied this off google. There is a phone number. Hope that works for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
New Zealand Deerstalkers Association - North Canterbury Branch
Website
Directions
Save
5.0
3 Google reviews
Hunting club in Christchurch
Address: 599 McLeans Island Road, McLeans Island, Christchurch 8051
Phone: 021 961 050
There does seem to be a real problem with the deerstalkers system or database.
Ive joined twice in last 7 years or so. Both times I received an initial newsletter and confirmation. yet after that not a single piece of correspondence. Not even a reminder to pay subs a year later. When I contacted the waikato deerstalkers about it, they had no record of me being a member despite me stipulating that to be my local branch.
Under the new CEO they seem to be getting their shit together with invoicing and most things really. As you say there was plenty of room for improvement. Im not an apologist for them, and Ive been a member for 50 years. Fortunately they now seem to have dragged themselves from being a club to being an organisation, but it has taken far too long in my view.Quote:
Originally Posted by whanahuia
Took me a good 20 seconds to find...Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
https://nzdacanterbury.org/why-join/
Was inefficient with a large carbon footprint?Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
As far as recreational hunting goes all fly in hunting trips will have a carbon footprint that is reasonably large. So what is the difference between flying in and shooting perhaps 1 trophy animal vs flying in and shooting every hind you see. Has the same carbon footprint but one has better outcomes for conservation.
So while you are at it you may as well get ahold of the Sika foundation and tell them their management hunts are inefficient and have a large carbon footprint.
You are clearly missing the whole point, at least with hunters taking the lead certain animals get targeted with little cost to the taxpayer.
You obviously have little idea how much it costs to get professional cullers in to do the job, I can assure you it isn't cheap.
I also don't think anyone is kidding themselves and genuinely believe recreational hunters can solely handle the situation. Hence why the likes of the Sika foundation are also getting a helicopter in to do culling as well followed by professional ground hunters.
The whole point is that hunters are trying and they are actively contributing, if you can't see that then it has obviously gone way over your head.
very good article in latest NZHunter mag about the access issue leading to high pockets of population.....its a well balanced read.
the other weird/stuffed up part of access is a waro help can land to process animals etc but cannot land to drop of recreational hunters WITHOUT a DOC permit..... dumb and short sighted.... never been up onto tops around haast,but if could hitch a cheap ride up to top of hill with help going there anyway for a couple of hundy bucks would be in like Flynn.... then hunt my way down to flats etc.....
A lot of jet fuel was burnt to get those hunters in and out of there and it will take a lot more of those operations to sort the issue in there.
And I do know how much professional cullers cost, I was one for 14 years.I could ring a heli operator right now who would do the same job for $700 plus ammo/ hour. There is a couple more that would probably do it cheaper. Pretty simple, shoot hinds and hinds only and spread the effort over the entire RHA by not wiping out whole family groups. The RHA needs a lot more culled than what was shot, probably 500 odd but that's an educated guess.
And by the way it doesn't worry me how big or little the carbon footprint was it's just that some do get rather sensitive about sort of thing nowadays.
$700 per hour!!!!!!!! you must have very fuel efficent machine,or its pedal powered LOL.... shocked to see 91 octane at over the $3 mark yesterday, diesel still creeping upwards,cant imagine avgas of whatever grade will be far behind it.....
we can all agree a good operator in good machine is the ultimate control tool in open country...the trick is to find one who doesnt get greedy and will leave the right animals so as to encourage recreational hunting.
funny how the wheel turns...the NZFS was actively encouraged to put in tracks n huts to get folks out into back country..... thats WHY the plurry things were built,DOC over last 30 years has progressively done less n less to maintain them (no blame or finger pointing,it is what it is) and now folks calling to upgrade these to get people back out there again....access is still an issue in places and also the country beside public land which holds bigger numbers and is closed off/locked up and actively /agressively policed to keep folks off...and even in some cases to try to keep folks away from country they are legally allowed in.....
its like the possum issue...if spotlighting and rimfires were ok..there wouldnt be many possums anywhere close to roads anymore....heck its a whole lot of hoops to jump through to trap or poison them on public land now.... ticket clippers.. I need say no more.
Might be out of date with the 700/hrs rate with the recent fuel rices but the point is a r22/cabri type are cheap and do the
same job as a bigger machine if you are not lifting anything.
Yeah well out of touch. I might be wrong but can DoC contractors even use Robinson helicopters anymore?Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
Be a 500 at a damn sight more than what you quoted.
Yeah it does need more shot, I don't think the NZDA or anyone else would argue with that, but it was a start and a start showing that hunters are prepared to have deer culled and would be happy to help if they could. Simple as that.
And with the latest budget that was announced there will be plenty more government funded shooting going on in the future no doubt.
correct,no Robbies for DOC contractors anymore.....could possibly be worked around by subbing out to 3rd party EG;NZDA???
It's good to see this thread steered away from politics to an actual hunting issue. I was waiting for a thread on the RHA cull, so I guess this will have to do. Finding it very surprising how many hunters are so keen on this, and how many more are keen to see choppers in there culling. The only justification I saw for the cull was "reports of damage to vegetation", and then some clown banging on about how the cull was "scientific and objective". I hunt the area a few times a year, mainly when I need to fill the freezer, and have not seen significant damage to vegetation caused by deer. Often find kea damage, and some pig rooting in places, but that is about all. It is a huge area with a pretty solid population, as stated above 127 hinds will make almost 0 difference. And, was it actually needed? Well, no one knows, at least that I have seen, as nobody knows the population density, or the population density that the area can sustain, or the natural attrition rate, or hunting harvest, or the reproduction rate etc. There was no science or objectivity to the cull, it was purely marketing. I would have much preferred to see an actual study on the effects of deer on the area, and a target population density with upper and lower bounds, and some way to measure it, and control it if necessary. We should be leading the way on that, not just culling because we think that is what the greenies want us to do. Here is a paper from 1989 suggesting a similar idea https://newzealandecology.org/nzje/1835.
The RHAs specifically exclude WARO, so anyone advocating for this (whether commercial or for charity) has a screw loose in my opinion. The lake sumner area is pretty close to the perfect hunting location, it has amazing scenery, pretty easy access, good animal numbers, and no WARO. Unless you can produce some actual science as to why animal numbers need reducing, by how much, and why choppers are the only way to achieve that, the people advocating for the removal of the last two can piss right off.
OK then how much is the going rate per hour for an r22 to do search and destroy on pests/game. Also a Cabri G2 has the same performance etc and are used by DOC. Look forward to your answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLB
From memory( lots of holes in it ) it was no r22's because of the crash stats for r22's could be wrongQuote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
some afterthought googling
"Department of Conservation extends Robinson helicopter ban over safety concerns"
The Department of Conservation (DOC) has extended a ban on Robinson Helicopters to include contractors, sub-contractors and volunteers carrying out department work.
DOC is the biggest user of helicopters in New Zealand, spending about $20 million a year.
In 2016 it banned staff from using Robinsons after the helicopters were placed on the Transport Accident Investigation Commission’s watchlist following several fatal crashes.
DOC aviation risk manager Brent Swanson said the policy was extended from Monday due to the risks associated with Robinson helicopters.
sent emails and left phone messages none were replied to so they can stick itQuote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
Its 2022 to not be able to go to the website enter some details and do it online no hassles job done in 10 min is abit retarded in my books
shows how behind the times they are to be so ignorant/arrogant whatever the reason is
You wouldn't want Doc to have anything to do with the actual culling. Judging by their actions on tahr the last few years everything would cop it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carbine
I'm generally pretty busy, and suspect you are too? Given that, I expect it'll be difficult to find a mutually suitable time for us to go for this walk you're offering. Can I therefore suggest you just pm me a desscription or a map of the problem areas so I can go for a look?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyblown
Thanks
or you could put condition like all animals must be harvested for food and give the meat, processed to food banks like the sika foundation do instead of leaving bodies on the hills so there is some benefit to taking animals off the hillsQuote:
Originally Posted by Puddleduk
If it is such a huge problem, and if much more culling is required, then why not post a list of areas publicly? Ordered from most deer to least deer (not for me, I never hunt up north).Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx
Edit: sorry, this quote was supposed to include the post you replied to.
Another vote of confidence for ex Minister Kiri Allan from bigoted me.I instinctively dont gravitate to Lesbian Left Wing polys.But I,ve eaten my words and have been so impressed with her no pity Cancer bounce back.Her natural charm.As a first term newbee MP thrust by Jizzy(unusually)straight into a portfolio she made a good fist of it
Not only was she more pro hunter than any previous DOC minister I can remember,I believe she @ the 11th hour saved whitebaiting as a kiwi right whereas Sage had it heading for the history books.
I was impressed with Kiri Allan when I did my submission on the new gun laws, she paid attention to what people were saying and asked intelligent questions.
My group has had a long running dispute with Doc- we applied for a concession SEVEN years ago..Nada, no progress at all! I wrote to Kiri in May, she obviously booted somebody's arse, and we had a long reply by way of apology that arrived 3 days after she lost the DoC position. I wish she'd stayed on.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZQLewis