Thread: National creates a Hunting and Fishing portfolio

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

“Police figures and statements don’t support” I find that fairly had to believe. If you want to make such claims, stump up your evidence for all to see.

All we have seen from Police so far is reference to couple of examples of people onselling firearms illegally and historic firearm burglary rates. But in the great scheme of thing they have not produced any specific statistics on recovered firearms vs sources. And if you ask them they say they don't have those numbers.

So police figures and statements don't support any specific source of firearms for criminals. At the moment you can tell them that the tooth fairy (I mean the real one... not the ex-pm) pulls them out of her arse and leaves them under a Mongrel Mobs patch when he loses a tooth and the police would struggle to contest that.

It is highly likely that the registry will actually prove or disprove the theories on the source of firearms. It's even more likely that it will disprove it's own value if it is revealed that recovered firearms used by criminals have had their serials or identifying marks removed (wouldn't that be a surprise!).

Originally Posted by Steve123

The main problem is sentences for selling to unlicenced people are too light. Home or community detention and PD for fucks sake. Make it hurt. Starting point of five years. No discounts for what ever bullshit the defence lawyer dreams up. No early parole. No easy jail's either.

I think your still a bit light Steve sorry.

I think 8 years minimum sentence. Lifetime prohibited person status (means you can't even touch a firearm) This gets around them using one under supervision from a FAL holder.

Not allowed to live in a building where firearms are stored. (ie no access to firearms).

Must register their home address with the Police and actually live there. (I.e their home address is not the local gang pad)

Not allowed to associate with gang members.

Generally, I think that we need to make the penalty outweigh the rewards from this dangerous illegal activity. There will still be some who will do it. (and squeal when they go to jail)

So be it. Do the crime, do the time. Stop fucking up our sport with your selfishness!

Originally Posted by Beavis

There is no reason we can't manage the ownership and use of centrefire semi auto rifles for sport shooters under a reimagined E endorsement.

We already do this for pistols under a B endorsement, and machine guns, pistols and select fire rifles under a C endorsement.

I might even put it to Mr Mclay to see where he stands on this issue.

Sounds like a sensible solution that will hopefully one day become the law under the next government.

Having hunting and fishing specific representation would be an awesome win.

Hopefully they address the RMA issues we've seen with fisheries closures recently, probably the biggest access issue facing fishos currently

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

You mean like nz polices own media statements? Or the OIA requests?

And in the US the majority of furearrelated deaths is with handguns. Besides which, what happens in the US has little bearing on NZ. Jackie used the pokices negligence in giving Tarrant a license, as a platform to promote her self image if Saint cindy. She didn't achieve anything other than being seen to be doing something. A recurring theme which is why the wheels finally fell off.

You still missing the point, you want to throw other disciplines of hunting and shooting under the bus? It comes back on you. NZDA got a rude lesson on that.

Yes if you have statements from the police, put them up. Likewise OIA requests with info supporting your claims, put them up.

And as for missing the point. I’ll try and be a little clearer.
I’m not throwing any discipline under the bus. The bus has already run over your beloved military style semi auto.
I’m simply stating what I see as the obvious.
They’re gone. There’s as much chance of Act or National rescinding the MSSA law there is of slavery returning.
The general public find them abhorrent, the Nats and Act will pick their battles, and MSSA will not be one of them.

As I said in the beginning, we as a hunting-shooting community need to decide what’s important to us, what’s realistically achievable.
As you said: onerous and unworkable rules around ranges are a perfect example.
Now Todd and his role is in play we must begin the process of putting rational and reasoned arguments on the table.

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Yes if you have statements from the police, put them up. Likewise OIA requests with info supporting your claims, put them up.

And as for missing the point. I’ll try and be a little clearer.
I’m not throwing any discipline under the bus. The bus has already run over your beloved military style semi auto.
I’m simply stating what I see as the obvious.
They’re gone. There’s as much chance of Act or National rescinding the MSSA law there is of slavery returning.
The general public find them abhorrent, the Nats and Act will pick their battles, and MSSA will not be one of them.

As I said in the beginning, we as a hunting-shooting community need to decide what’s important to us, what’s realistically achievable.
As you said: onerous and unworkable rules around ranges are a perfect example.
Now Todd and his role is in play we must begin the process of putting rational and reasoned arguments on the table.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.scoop...al-weapons.htm

That wasn't so hard to find now was it?

OK...so lets just ask a simple question.
how many illegal firearms have you seen in your lifetime???
eg handguns not belonging to handgun endorsed people.....semis after the buyback/gungrab clearly underlength sawnoffs.
off top of my head
4 different no 5 different handguns
including one posted on internet before poster realised the mistake and took it down.
saw a SKS weeks after gungrab was over SITTING ON DRUM IN FARM SHED.....
so thats 6 off top of my head that clearly arent "known about" and I dont get around with undesirables so the true number of whats out there must be huge.

my point being none of those would ever get registered.....

Bullshit aye mickey. Just goes to prove that their buyback was a waste of money and time because only honest people complied.

We all know this, but alas, Politicians, they live in their own clean white cotton wool lives where nothing is ever wrong with what they do.

The irony is that even simpletons like us can see these issues.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.scoop...al-weapons.htm

That wasn't so hard to find now was it?

Don’t mean to piss on your fire, but may pay to read the article.
1. The way I read it: “Police don’t know the source of 82% of criminals weapons” This means they can only the identify the source of 18%. The rest no they have no proof, so they can’t statistically apply the numbers to a source.
2. Within the report they identified 10% came from licensed owners either via theft or being illegibly on-sold.

Statistically speaking the way it works is you use the ratios of the known sources to apply to the unknown sources, to gain a more complete picture. My guess this is what they did.
As we’re all well aware, crimes aren’t in the habit of narking on their own, or shitting in their nest.
And unfortunately this large proportion of seized firearms with no known source, actually supports my argument. It’s the simple fact they can’t identify the source of so many that supports their argument.
How can they close off the source when they don’t know where it is?

I heard from a pretty reliable source the police busted a gang gun manufacturing operation in Wellington fairly recently, using 3D printers (apparently they had 3 running) and imported parts which could not be identified as firearm parts. So there is no doubt there are plenty being smuggled and locally manufactured.

Again I’m not arguing it’s right, or fair on us. I’m just realistic as to how they come to these decisions (aided by politicians who are aiming to please the general public who are afraid of MSSA and mass shootings).

Im buggered if that is logical @Lauries Hut .....because they/we/anyone doesnt know where guns came from does not in ANY WAY proove where they came from.
thats like saying because 127 children under the age of 15 were found with cigarettes ,logic says they were purchased by same children in 4 square supermarkets.
or that they were "straw bought" by older people from night n day stores.
there is NO WAY to tell if they were or were not....
it ignores the corner dairy...it ignores the ciggys being pinched in a ram raid (now there is a logical source if ever I ve seen one) it ignores the chance the 15 year old LOOKS like they are 17-18-19 and picked dairy with young person behind counter,who couldnt tell and was too shy to ask for ID or too lazy,it ignores the local store with young man behind counter and the big bossomed young lady with short shorts n even shorter top coming in to buy them,or being in shop when they were purchased...or next in line flashing big puppy dog eyes at young man,who hurried purchase through so he could serve (oh what a choice of word) young woman next.
you have agreed about smuggling parts and making locally...so its still logical there are some smuggled in whole,I can tell you right here and now having unloaded many shipping containers in a former life...it would be childs play to include lots of items inside one full of legitamate cargo ,absolute childsplay.not to mention how many ships slip in and out of port each day and how many larger pleasure craft we have that are more than capable of whizzing out to meet them at sea. the possibilities are endless,if the desire and or the $$$$ involved are high enough there is no way you could stop them getting in.

EG if you were to offer $5,000 right now to buy a sks ..how long do you think it would be before you would get one???
if you were to offer $10,000 for a handgun...again how long????
now pretend for one moment that money is NO ISSUE,you want a uzi and you want it in a hurry,will pay whatever is asked.....you honestly believe one wont magically appear quicksmartly if the finder fee is in say 5 figures and your happy to pay same to whoever they got it off...or double to just the "finder"??????

now that bridge I have to sell.....

Originally Posted by Lauries Hut

Don’t mean to piss on your fire, but may pay to read the article.
1. The way I read it: “Police don’t know the source of 82% of criminals weapons” This means they can only the identify the source of 18%. The rest no they have no proof, so they can’t statistically apply the numbers to a source.
2. Within the report they identified 10% came from licensed owners either via theft or being illegibly on-sold.

Statistically speaking the way it works is you use the ratios of the known sources to apply to the unknown sources, to gain a more complete picture. My guess this is what they did.
As we’re all well aware, crimes aren’t in the habit of narking on their own, or shitting in their nest.
And unfortunately this large proportion of seized firearms with no known source, actually supports my argument. It’s the simple fact they can’t identify the source of so many that supports their argument.
How can they close off the source when they don’t know where it is?

I heard from a pretty reliable source the police busted a gang gun manufacturing operation in Wellington fairly recently, using 3D printers (apparently they had 3 running) and imported parts which could not be identified as firearm parts. So there is no doubt there are plenty being smuggled and locally manufactured.

Again I’m not arguing it’s right, or fair on us. I’m just realistic as to how they come to these decisions (aided by politicians who are aiming to please the general public who are afraid of MSSA and mass shootings).

That's the point. Saying the majority comes from license holders is totally unfounded. I'm glad you agree with me.

Originally Posted by Danger Mouse

That's the point. Saying the majority comes from license holders is totally unfounded. I'm glad you agree with me.

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rmation-90049/

From 2005, there have been 11,701 firearms stolen over 4900 incidents where firearms have been reported stolen. Thats an average of 2.4 firearms per theft, 5.5 thefts a week.
Now unless its unlicensed persons reporting thefts to the Police, those 11000 weapons came from licensed owners.

Originally Posted by HG Man

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rmation-90049/

From 2005, there have been 11,701 firearms stolen over 4900 incidents where firearms have been reported stolen. Thats an average of 2.4 firearms per theft, 5.5 thefts a week.
Now unless its unlicensed persons reporting thefts to the Police, those 11000 weapons came from licensed owners.

.....but not the straw-purchasing the Police are currently touting.

Originally Posted by HG Man

https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....rmation-90049/

From 2005, there have been 11,701 firearms stolen over 4900 incidents where firearms have been reported stolen. Thats an average of 2.4 firearms per theft, 5.5 thefts a week.
Now unless its unlicensed persons reporting thefts to the Police, those 11000 weapons came from licensed owners.

so FIX the criminal aspect......burglers shot on sight would be a good start. drug dealers too...but shoot them twice just to make sure.