Thread: Not again!

Better to miss an opportunity than take out someone by mistake. There's always next time.

I'm just speculating but think the shooter saw the dog as a deer fired the shot most probably shot the dog through the stomach and hit the hunter fatally.He did not identify his target

Originally Posted by Hennie260

I'm just speculating but think the shooter saw the dog as a deer fired the shot most probably shot the dog through the stomach and hit the hunter fatally.He did not identify his target

When you say "speculating", do you mean "making shit up"?

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Quality post feral.

@Feral, No not at all I'm just speculating like many others on this forum. FN

Another post from a tramping forum -

1- too many idiots with rifles. its an insult to call him a hunter, he's just an idiot with a gun...
2- Put him in jail for life he is a murderer.
3- It's a sad state of affairs when you can't take your seven year old son into the hills on a long weekend for fear of being shot on a track by one of these over excited idiots.

In thirty years of tramping, I've noticed a real change in the attitude, experience and general demeanour of hunters.
Whereas in the past most were self sufficient, responsible and respectful, it's now all about flying in with as much piss as you can fit in the back of a 500 and to hell with anybody else.

You only have to read some of the imbecilic and largely illiterate posts on a popular New Zealand hunting forum to realise that you don't need to be all that bright to hold a firearms license.

Everybody has the right to use the outdoors and feel safe.

I'll be disappointed if this dickhead gets sentenced anything less than a term of imprisonment.
4- The good hunters are still around but you are correct in the number of people that think hunting is sitting at the edge of a clearing with a 6 pack waiting for something to happen.
The hunting based reality tv seems based around exactly this style of hunting if its not guided hunting where a guide takes you to where he knows a trophy can be found. I have to wonder how safe some of these guides sometimes feel when they meet their fully armed clients.
Ive heard storys from overseas where the guide takes you to a tethered animal. It hasnt got this bad here yet has it?
5-
I'm torn about this. On one hand I'm dumbstruck about how increadibly stupid and irresponsible some people are with guns. It's a devestating thing for victims and all those around them, and it'd be stupid for there not to be serious repercussions. But I'm also not convinced that blanket long term incaceration for extensive periods of time, at everyone else's great expense, will actually fix the problem
6- If we took the time to look at the life story of most people who take another's life, we would most likely feel pity and tend to look toward a more lenient sentence. But we don't. Why do we do so with hunters?

I don't care about anything but the fact these irresponsible idiots kill someone who is out enjoying their weekend.

I feel the same way about drink drivers.

I can not take my kids into the hills for a month until these fools go back to where ever it is these people lurk.

As far as I'm concerned wild deer are a noxious pest and should be hunted to extinction in much the same way that we would like to do possums and stoats.

We need to end this Barry Crump romantic vision of the good keen man and realise that this persona only came about because of men who were trying to eradicate these animals for good in the first place.

Not to strut around like primal alpha males, for a few weeks each year.
7- too many people dont have the right attitude and training to be using a rifle in the hills. theres no system in place at present which brings enough people using rifles up to the standard required to be using a firearm safely.

our tramping party arrived at a hut once, one bunk left, one of our guys took the bunk while the rest of us camped,
a short while later the tramper came out of the hut and said "beam me up scotty, theres no intelligent life in there"

i recall a conversation between hunters, one of them didnt know he had to clean and oil his rifle....

look at how guns are portrayed on TV and in the movies. they are shown to be used in a glamourised way by sexy cool people, dont like a situation? sort it out with your firearm...
8- To my mind the more pressing issue lay with the practise of spotlighting in general. Especially on DoC land where other people are likely to be about.

Others have mentioned the various hunting programs around. I wonder how many of them devote any time to 'identify your target' and the other golden rules of firearm use? Not all that much I suspect.
9- if you use a firearm you better think very carefully how you use it, or find another way to use your spare time...
people have to grow up and realise hunting is a serious business, mummy can't bale you out of this when you shoot someone, you're in the hands of the police and justice system. being sorry doesn't bring the dead person back to life. its the firers responsiblity to do due diligence before pulling the trigger, it's the law, same as when you're on the road you follow the road rules, if you flout the rules enough there can be serious consequences...
10- But I do agree totally that using a gun is a very serious business and that there are indeed too many in the hills, especially at the roar, who don't treat it seriously.

More than a few of us these days regard these weeks in March/April as 'no go tramping' zones.

Personally I've long argued that ALL hunters must belong to a recognised and regulated hunting organisation. Their role would be expanded by law to encompass gun ownership registration and mandatory, routine safety training. No pass the test, no gun.
11- As a long time hunter I have very strong views about how firearms are percieved in New Zealand and in the media. I am disturbed that as a society we seem to trivialise firearms and their effects. We give our children toy firearms at a very early age and encourage them to use them in play that involves "shooting" others. Most so called "action" movies and television shows also trivialise the consequences of being shot with any type of firearm. I have been an emergency service worker for many years and a hunter for over 50 years and have seen a number of gunshot wounds. Even those considered minor, cause considerable pain and suffering while more serious wounds are life changing. If we are to believe what we see on our screens people are able to be shot and continue as if nothing has happened whereas the reality is that any gunshot wound almost always is immediately immobilising and painfully traumatic.
Without commenting specifically on the current incident I believe that anyone who fatally shoots another person in a hunting context should, as a default position be charged with manslaughter
12- hunting is an adrenaline sport for a lot of hunters, something to do for a buzz and excitement, and the consequences and responsibilities involved in using a firearm just go out the door.
13- the prospect of some socially and intellectually deficient hunter who compensates by owning a gun and shooting animals for the love of it worries me.
The same applies to these tv fishing prima donas who think it's about adrenalin and high fives.
Kill to get enough to eat (or legally cull)!
Not to get a buzz or take a selfie
The worlds gone mad!
14- cant be a hundred percent of hunters who shoot at people hit them, but theres no stories in the media about near misses, so theres a bigger problem out there than is being reported, there may be several near misses for every hit, i know someone who was shot at and was missed while walking along a well established track....
15- Over the years I've come to hold a lot of respect for skilled hunters. Their experience of the bush is quite different to a trampers, but equally valuable. There is always something to be learned from them, and I've enjoyed a few good evenings sharing a cosy hut with them.

But I'm also aware that everyone starts out in anything as a beginner; and beginner hunters can be bloody dangerous. Ideally hunting novices really should be spending their first few years alongside experienced mates who can mentor and guide them. That's the best way to absorb not only the skills, but the correct attitudes as well.
16- When I expressed an interest in hunting and the outdoors my parents supported me but insisted I joined a club. I joined the local deerstalkers which turned out to be one of the best things I have ever done. There were lots of older guys who - once you had proved you were not a complete idiot would invite you on small group trips which turned out to be the best learning experience possible. I learned more about bushcraft and survival skills in that environment than I ever would have otherwise.
I have recently renewed my firearms license even though I don't hunt much these days and I found the process very thorough as it included an on site visit to check that all my firearms were secured safely, plus my wife was interveiewd seperately to ensure that she did not have any concerns.

Originally Posted by Nathan F

Another post from a tramping forum -

1- too many idiots with rifles. its an insult to call him a hunter, he's just an idiot with a gun...
2- Put him in jail for life he is a murderer.
3- It's a sad state of affairs when you can't take your seven year old son into the hills on a long weekend for fear of being shot on a track by one of these over excited idiots.

In thirty years of tramping, I've noticed a real change in the attitude, experience and general demeanour of hunters.
Whereas in the past most were self sufficient, responsible and respectful, it's now all about flying in with as much piss as you can fit in the back of a 500 and to hell with anybody else.

You only have to read some of the imbecilic and largely illiterate posts on a popular New Zealand hunting forum to realise that you don't need to be all that bright to hold a firearms license.

Everybody has the right to use the outdoors and feel safe.

I'll be disappointed if this dickhead gets sentenced anything less than a term of imprisonment.
4- The good hunters are still around but you are correct in the number of people that think hunting is sitting at the edge of a clearing with a 6 pack waiting for something to happen.
The hunting based reality tv seems based around exactly this style of hunting if its not guided hunting where a guide takes you to where he knows a trophy can be found. I have to wonder how safe some of these guides sometimes feel when they meet their fully armed clients.
Ive heard storys from overseas where the guide takes you to a tethered animal. It hasnt got this bad here yet has it?
5-
I'm torn about this. On one hand I'm dumbstruck about how increadibly stupid and irresponsible some people are with guns. It's a devestating thing for victims and all those around them, and it'd be stupid for there not to be serious repercussions. But I'm also not convinced that blanket long term incaceration for extensive periods of time, at everyone else's great expense, will actually fix the problem
6- If we took the time to look at the life story of most people who take another's life, we would most likely feel pity and tend to look toward a more lenient sentence. But we don't. Why do we do so with hunters?

I don't care about anything but the fact these irresponsible idiots kill someone who is out enjoying their weekend.

I feel the same way about drink drivers.

I can not take my kids into the hills for a month until these fools go back to where ever it is these people lurk.

As far as I'm concerned wild deer are a noxious pest and should be hunted to extinction in much the same way that we would like to do possums and stoats.

We need to end this Barry Crump romantic vision of the good keen man and realise that this persona only came about because of men who were trying to eradicate these animals for good in the first place.

Not to strut around like primal alpha males, for a few weeks each year.
7- too many people dont have the right attitude and training to be using a rifle in the hills. theres no system in place at present which brings enough people using rifles up to the standard required to be using a firearm safely.

our tramping party arrived at a hut once, one bunk left, one of our guys took the bunk while the rest of us camped,
a short while later the tramper came out of the hut and said "beam me up scotty, theres no intelligent life in there"

i recall a conversation between hunters, one of them didnt know he had to clean and oil his rifle....

look at how guns are portrayed on TV and in the movies. they are shown to be used in a glamourised way by sexy cool people, dont like a situation? sort it out with your firearm...
8- To my mind the more pressing issue lay with the practise of spotlighting in general. Especially on DoC land where other people are likely to be about.

Others have mentioned the various hunting programs around. I wonder how many of them devote any time to 'identify your target' and the other golden rules of firearm use? Not all that much I suspect.
9- if you use a firearm you better think very carefully how you use it, or find another way to use your spare time...
people have to grow up and realise hunting is a serious business, mummy can't bale you out of this when you shoot someone, you're in the hands of the police and justice system. being sorry doesn't bring the dead person back to life. its the firers responsiblity to do due diligence before pulling the trigger, it's the law, same as when you're on the road you follow the road rules, if you flout the rules enough there can be serious consequences...
10- But I do agree totally that using a gun is a very serious business and that there are indeed too many in the hills, especially at the roar, who don't treat it seriously.

More than a few of us these days regard these weeks in March/April as 'no go tramping' zones.

Personally I've long argued that ALL hunters must belong to a recognised and regulated hunting organisation. Their role would be expanded by law to encompass gun ownership registration and mandatory, routine safety training. No pass the test, no gun.
11- As a long time hunter I have very strong views about how firearms are percieved in New Zealand and in the media. I am disturbed that as a society we seem to trivialise firearms and their effects. We give our children toy firearms at a very early age and encourage them to use them in play that involves "shooting" others. Most so called "action" movies and television shows also trivialise the consequences of being shot with any type of firearm. I have been an emergency service worker for many years and a hunter for over 50 years and have seen a number of gunshot wounds. Even those considered minor, cause considerable pain and suffering while more serious wounds are life changing. If we are to believe what we see on our screens people are able to be shot and continue as if nothing has happened whereas the reality is that any gunshot wound almost always is immediately immobilising and painfully traumatic.
Without commenting specifically on the current incident I believe that anyone who fatally shoots another person in a hunting context should, as a default position be charged with manslaughter
12- hunting is an adrenaline sport for a lot of hunters, something to do for a buzz and excitement, and the consequences and responsibilities involved in using a firearm just go out the door.
13- the prospect of some socially and intellectually deficient hunter who compensates by owning a gun and shooting animals for the love of it worries me.
The same applies to these tv fishing prima donas who think it's about adrenalin and high fives.
Kill to get enough to eat (or legally cull)!
Not to get a buzz or take a selfie
The worlds gone mad!
14- cant be a hundred percent of hunters who shoot at people hit them, but theres no stories in the media about near misses, so theres a bigger problem out there than is being reported, there may be several near misses for every hit, i know someone who was shot at and was missed while walking along a well established track....
15- Over the years I've come to hold a lot of respect for skilled hunters. Their experience of the bush is quite different to a trampers, but equally valuable. There is always something to be learned from them, and I've enjoyed a few good evenings sharing a cosy hut with them.

But I'm also aware that everyone starts out in anything as a beginner; and beginner hunters can be bloody dangerous. Ideally hunting novices really should be spending their first few years alongside experienced mates who can mentor and guide them. That's the best way to absorb not only the skills, but the correct attitudes as well.
16- When I expressed an interest in hunting and the outdoors my parents supported me but insisted I joined a club. I joined the local deerstalkers which turned out to be one of the best things I have ever done. There were lots of older guys who - once you had proved you were not a complete idiot would invite you on small group trips which turned out to be the best learning experience possible. I learned more about bushcraft and survival skills in that environment than I ever would have otherwise.
I have recently renewed my firearms license even though I don't hunt much these days and I found the process very thorough as it included an on site visit to check that all my firearms were secured safely, plus my wife was interveiewd seperately to ensure that she did not have any concerns.

Pretty sobering reading @Nathan F. Some of it typical knee jerk stuff but still makes us all look pretty rednecked. Especially the reference to "popular NZ hunting forums".
We really need to think a lot about this in general.

Every time any one of us does something stupid in the eyes of non hunters it does us all a complete dis service. That said much misinterpretation can come from lack of understanding of context.

A pretty emotive topic and an absolutely avoidable tragedy what has happened to this young army lad, his family, his mates, and the dog.

I wanted to wait until some facts about the incident came out before commenting but in the mean time I thought I would summarize a discussion a bunch of us had one evening sitting around the fire. Nicole McKee (former Firearms and Hunter Safety Programme Manager for NZ MSC) made the point that hunting incidents with firearms are almost unheard of with Maori (there has been a couple though, one in the last couple of years). There are quite a few Maori people that hunt, they typically aren't using the expensive camouflage or blaze hunting fashion, they also typically don't have the super expensive scope that is awesome in low light... but they also are a lot less likely (statically speaking) to mistakenly shoot another person. They don't typically have a lot of target shooting experience or formal firearms/hunting training, some of them do not even have firearms licences but they also seem to be less likely to mistakenly identify a human for a deer.

What we discussed is that it seems to come down to attitude. Other have mentioned here about people getting hyped up about hunting in the roar and about the "1 trip a year" hunters. What I believe is that we live in a very material driven society i.e. a hunt is not considered successful unless you get an animal. For many people a hunt which doesn't result in an animal is considered a failed hunt and ridicule comes from the "mates"! And so I believe that some hunters will sacrifice common sense just to get a deer - "get a bullet into it to slow it down so we can finish it" mentality leads them to shoot before completely identifying their target (i.e. at movement, sound, colour, etc.) and waiting until you can see the whole animal may result it in sensing you and running away. Add to this attitude the excitement of roaring stags and the ability of the brain to "see what you want to see" results in very serious and tragic mistakes being made.

To bring the discussion back to Maori, they quite often hunt very close to home and get into the bush a lot over the year - so if they don't get something they simply head out again the next day/weekend. Bottom line, they don't put the same societal pressure on themselves to come back from a hunt with an animal even though, quite often, that animal goes a long way to feeding the whanau.

For me a successful hunt is one that gets me out of the desk/office I spend the vast majority of my year sitting at - getting an animal is a bonus. Treating hunting like this takes the "pressure" off and means I am about as likely to watch an animal for the enjoyment I get out of watching them as I am to shoot one.

I have no idea how we as a hunting society change the attitude of this minority group among us. Maybe more successful "hunt" stories on forums, in magazines, on TV about hunts that didn't result in an animal could help? Stories that focus on the enjoyment of being out there. Stories about roaring a stag up to you just to see how big its eyes get when you leap out and give it a fright! Signs and reminders about identifying your target, "no meat is better than no mate", and all that are definitely helpful but I can't think of a measure that is guaranteed 100% effective. Unfortunately there will always be mistakes...

Again, my condolences to this young man's family and friends.

Great post Gillie and Nathan.
For me roar hunting is simply about being out there with great mates, I'd rather take a photo and let someone else take the trophy now.
The let's get on the piss at the hut culture has to stop, just stay at home and go to the pub.

We had a spooky conversation with the shooter 4 days before this tragedy about getting shot and target Identification
Seemed like genuine experienced guys.


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For me a successful hunt is one that gets me out of the desk/office I spend the vast majority of my year sitting at - getting an animal is a bonus. Treating hunting like this takes the "pressure" off and means I am about as likely to watch an animal for the enjoyment I get out of watching them as I am to shoot one.

Pretty much sums up my feelings, for me its not so much about "getting something" rather that I am out and about somewhere seeing stuff / places etc you don't see on the couch. I don't get that many animals but enough to keep me in meat of some sort

My fishing has pretty much gone the same way. I like taking other people out and making sure they have a good time (sadly this year not been that often)

I do wonder like you @Gillie whether that since society is becoming more "city based" we are losing our outdoor abilities for example city based hunters may not be able to hunt often so the pressure is on to "get something" both from themselves and family / friends to justify being away from family & friends even if this is unspoken.

I am often asked by staff in our Auckland Branch "where their venison is (they are seriously asking too). I alway reply never got anything so they must think I'm a shit hunter after 16 years of "I got nothing"

The shooter was an experienced hunter as is the case with many other shootings in the bush. Hard to see how it happens but it does. A reminder to us all about the need to be careful every time you go out and for God sake identify a target beyond doubt. Could happen to anyone of us if you dont.

Pains me to say it, but I agree with some of the non hunting factions comments. They have every right to be alarmed when people are getting shot in high use areas.
It might be just me but I seriously doubt I would tramp at this time of year if I was a Scroggin eater and not a hunter. But each to their own.

My hunting pastime started as shoot everything you could as it was money in the pocket.
However you got substantially less money if you couldn't clean shoot an animal.
It took patience and observation to ensure you could be deliberate enough to get a good paycheck.
I was also fortunate to live in an area where I could hunt every spare moment I had.
Doing possums as a hobby also helped tune me in to my environment I spose.

I can honestly say I have never seen something in the bush that I mistook for something else after properly observing it.

I note in some accounts that experienced hunters that have shot other people say they seen a deers head bob up and down. To me if they were experienced they would know that a deers head rarely bobs or that it has a much different cadence if it does.


I reckon there are a number of ways to reduce the risk of these things happening in NZ but they would be considered drastic.

But for 2 months of the year I reckon it would seem minor if it saves lives.






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I have started a new thread here http://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.n...-safety-26407/ based on a couple of discussion points from this thread.

I was about to say what brads mentioned above but he beat me to it. It's not the once a year hunters who are doing the killing, it's the experienced. Its a case of 'There but for the grace of God go I'. Be vigilant out there