Thread: People very sick after eating wild pig

One other thought that I had on this issue was what sauce did they use on the pork? Home made tomato sauce (gud old watties) some badly fermentented citrus chutney...

I thought the previously cooked rice, subsequently reheated was the suspect?

The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.

ACC does not cover cases like this, involving bacteria. The people who suffered from the bad water up North were not covered by ACC either.

How they got it would be interesting to know, bad meat handling (botulism is a bacteria that lives in the soil) or whatever. But it is rare in NZ, last case was in 1983. So I wouldn't worry too much.
Last case I remember being told about was a chap who fired up his dinner on a frying pan that hadn't been washed in 10 days. Succumbed to severe death shortly thereafter. Like within half an hour.
So botulism can work very quickly.
I worry more about tainted cutlery and plates in a hut, than about the meat off a freshly killed wild pig or deer.

About the most you can take from this case so far, is that curry will not kill botulism.

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.

ACC does not cover cases like this, involving bacteria. The people who suffered from the bad water up North were not covered by ACC either.

How they got it would be interesting to know, bad meat handling (botulism is a bacteria that lives in the soil) or whatever. But it is rare in NZ, last case was in 1983. So I wouldn't worry too much.
Last case I remember being told about was a chap who fired up his dinner on a frying pan that hadn't been washed in 10 days. Succumbed to severe death shortly thereafter. Like within half an hour.
So botulism can work very quickly.
I worry more about tainted cutlery and plates in a hut, than about the meat off a freshly killed wild pig or deer.

About the most you can take from this case so far, is that curry will not kill botulism.

No it is not botulism until such time as the specimen results are received from Australia that provide incontrovertible proof.this theory of it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck flys like a duck 'is not 100%applicable and i dont give a rats arse who disagrees.we see this all the bloody time with mental illness -people who diagnose cause they think the symptoms fit a specific type .WRONG.this sort of shit is rampant these days due to the internet and the ability to self diagnose often due to quack sites.

Originally Posted by kotuku

No it is not botulism until such time as the specimen results are received from Australia that provide incontrovertible proof.this theory of it looks like a duck ,quacks like a duck flys like a duck 'is not 100%applicable and i dont give a rats arse who disagrees.we see this all the bloody time with mental illness -people who diagnose cause they think the symptoms fit a specific type .WRONG.this sort of shit is rampant these days due to the internet and the ability to self diagnose often due to quack sites.

+1 Its not confirmed it is botullism and some experts think its not as some of the symptoms dont match (ie going into a coma so quick). Carlsen is jumping the gun and is a fool to say IT IS botulism when all hes going on are some experts that are saying it is when in actual fact no results have confirmed anything and until that time it MAYBE botulism end of

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

The anti 1080 people have well and truly clouded this situation with conspiracy theories. But the symptoms match botulism and they are responding to botulism anti-toxins. So its botulism.

The symptoms don't seem to match food poisoning botulism though?

Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism typically begin between 12 and 36 hours after the toxin gets into your body. But, the start of symptoms can range from a few hours to several days, depending on the amount of toxin ingested. Signs and symptoms of foodborne botulism include:

Difficulty swallowing or speaking
Dry mouth
Facial weakness on both sides of the face
Blurred or double vision
Drooping eyelids
Trouble breathing
Nausea, vomiting and abdominal cramps
Paralysis

FWIW 1080 poisoning symptoms seem different too, however some rodenticides do list coma's as a symptom of poisoning so who knows.

As for responding to botulism treatments you're a smart guy you know about cause and effect relationships (or not). These people are most likely on IV fluids, maybe oxygen (useful for cyanide poisoning) it could be there system is flushing whatever they have out from that. Doctors are assuming its the antitoxins that are working. Until that lab report comes back they are just assuming/guessing.

Don't you find it odd the lab report is taking so long - it's almost a month now?

and this could backfire on hunters, if it did turn out to be secondary poisoning say from feratox then it may lead to tighter restrictions on meat recovery and where people can hunt.

Point of order Carlsen! How does a severe death differ from say a mild death? I am taking the piss but I really had never considered that there were differing degrees of death until I read your post.

I was always told "death can be fatal, if taken seriously "

I suppose there are fast and relatively painless deaths i.e. bullet to the head, quick and painful going through a combine harvester, long and drawn out with a lot of pain like cancer in your weanie,
take your pick there are some nasty ways to checkout, food poisoning is one of the most unpleasant ways to go

Originally Posted by Taff

I was always told "death can be fatal, if taken seriously "

@Taff

No, if taken internally.

How to die from botulism:

Catch a fish, leave it on the ground and get soil into the gills. - still safe to eat

Boil it too short time, not killing off the anaerobic (hardy) spores. - still safe to eat

Pickle it, but with insufficient sugar / vinegar in and leave the airtight container aside for a few weeks. - getting there boys!

Eat it. - Die

From the outset, the family spokesman indicated the test would be carried out in Australia, and results would take a month. I do not believe for one second that the cause is 1080, but rather a form of food poisoning. I contacted police the day after the initial news and suggested they investigate contents of the home and kitchen where the meal was prepared. They did not seem too interested. Whether the DHB has investigated the home or not I don't know.

Well, a fool I may be. But considering no one on here is a goddamn doctor, I will go with the opinion of people who are for the time being, until I get my own PHD sorted out.
And you just have to listen to some of these anti-1080 people sometimes and you realise that you really wouldnt want to be roped to them if you were mountain climbing.

Originally Posted by Carlsen Highway

Well, a fool I may be. But considering no one on here is a goddamn doctor, I will go with the opinion of people who are for the time being, until I get my own PHD sorted out.
And you just have to listen to some of these anti-1080 people sometimes and you realise that you really wouldnt want to be roped to them if you were mountain climbing.

If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.

It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.

Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.

When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.

Originally Posted by vulcannz

If you put your faith entirely in doctors then you've got some hard times in your future. Doctors are people just like the rest of us, they are open to mistakes and other influences. You also seem to be hung up on the anti-1080 thing, I and others have noted it doesn't sound like 1080.

It doesn't take a PHD to look at the symptoms and processes that happen with botulism toxin. It takes time to kick in, if those people ingested it from a meal it would have to have been one from a day or so earlier. If that were the case then you would expect the symptoms for each adult to kick in over a more diverse period of time. In this case the 3 adults came down ill simultaneously - which would indicate it came from that recent meal.

Here's a tip from an old fella, question doctors. It may save your life one day. I just had a work colleague diagnosed with an ailment by NZ doctors (cancer related), their option was surgery - nothing else. She hold dual citizenship, so she went back to her original country and the doctors there told here no it was easily dealt with with localized radiation treatment. She got 3 different opinions. She's back in NZ now all cleared up.

When a doctor says "we're only checking for botulism" that tells me they've already made up their mind. They have made an assumption, not a diagnosis.

Maybe. But in this "pig" case internet jockeys are attempting to make a diagnosis with incomplete, subjective or imagined information. The Dr's are making it with all of the information to hand and on the back of specialised medical diagnostic training, at least four years of intense studies and the considered opinions of colleagues and specialists. I know who I would put my faith in.