Thread: This pisses me off!

Came across this video and to be honest, Im surprised that Tim Gale would support it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbMxYiEeE9w&t=825s

Ive been speaking too a few members of the NZPHGA over the last weeks, and whats clear is that they recognise that with the reduction of the Tahr herd, Helihunting has become completely unsustainable! That over the next 3 years as the mature bulls that are left either get shot or die naturally, the mature male cohort of the herd is going to collapse. That taking out the numbers of bulls they do and very often the fit young ones that venture where they can be helihunted easily, is quickening that collapse.

My questions are-

Why then do they in this vid, put the blame everywhere but there, or mention helihunting is part of the problem?

Why take such a borderline Bull for the video?

Ill leave it up too each of you to make your own decision on whether the Chamois and Tahr are being helihunted. I cant prove anything, but the video sure shows aspects that make me beleive they could be.

Im a big supporter of the GAC, But this disappoints me incredibly. Its the separation of the "industry" and the rest of us that will make the GAC fail.

I thought it was quite a good video. Whether you support that type of hunting or not, I thought some very good information was presented.
There is nothing illegal about heli hunting. And the way that video was presented they basically flew in for a day hunt. Changing the rules to no hunting on the day you fly would stop that.
There's way worse stuff going on in some areas than that.

Its a well presented video. Its just ignoring the real issue while trying to make out the commercial sector is the solution And totally ignoring the recreational sector. You'd be forgiven for thinking there was no recreational sector.
Also, as I said. The biggest threat too the mature bull cohort right now and for the foreseeable future is Helihunting/ AATH. under whatever guise it takes

Make no mistake. We are in, what will be for many of us, the final days of excellence as far as our Tahr trophy herd go's. There is not the replacement capability after the culls. The herd will crash over the next few years as natural die off and over hunting impacts mature animals. The commercial sector will continue and will sell younger and younger bulls as representative. Such as the bull in the video. Count the rings.
Im suspicious of many of the points presented in that video. Suspicious because Im being told different. Suspicious because of whats being left out. which is very telling if you know.

Go back 20 years and a 12" bull was very good any chammy over 9" was too...some much smaller than that got taken home from safari hunts.im dubious if herds will collapse as a little bull can still jump a nanny.

I think thats missing the point. Ist bull Tahr are slower maturing. If I recall they dont reach maturity until approx 4. Second Im not talking about just herd survival. Im talking about mature bull population. No one I know wants to see a herd where a rare 12 inch bull is celebrated. I remember those days. Read the first decade of Rod and rifle and add up how many Tahr hunt stories there are.
And lastly, in my opinion the video is a gross misrepresentation masked as conservation that will actually do more harm.

Well watching video....they more than once mention hunters gathering for meat. There wasn't I will admit huge push forward of recreational hunter,so can see your point re commercial but I believe Tim possibly could have worded it better(he may have done so and been edited?) but I don't think he has forgotten or intentionally brushed us aside as such. The phrase controlled culling was used more than once,as was we need a more "controlled" culling.... Subtle difference but it was mentioned.my take on that was...what's been done culling wise was maybe not best approach long term.we can all agree on that I think.

Would be interesting to find out what % of that 1400 trophies came off public land Vs private....cause really what goes on on private land re population etc has little to do with the rest of us.....all be it they act as nursery to keep resupplying outside boundary...as per lilybank thirty or so years ago

What percentage of helihunted trophies come off public land? How many a year and how many mature bull Tahr are available now Mickey? How many will be available in 3 years?

Will Helihunting stop if the average bull is reduced from7- 9 years and 12-13 inch, down too 5-6 years and 11-11,5 inch?

Im aware of this issue because guides I know told me about it. They are aware. They just dont have an answer and are content to make money until the crash.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Well watching video....they more than once mention hunters gathering for meat. There wasn't I will admit huge push forward of recreational hunter,so can see your point re commercial but I believe Tim possibly could have worded it better(he may have done so and been edited?) but I don't think he has forgotten or intentionally brushed us aside as such. The phrase controlled culling was used more than once,as was we need a more "controlled" culling.... Subtle difference but it was mentioned.my take on that was...what's been done culling wise was maybe not best approach long term.we can all agree on that I think.

I agree Micky, Tim was probably interviewed for a long time to get that small snippet.
I was recently the subject of a promotional video.
Two days of filming resulted in a thirty second clip.
Everyone that's seen it recons it's because of my looks.

oh Im well aware of that too bud.....thus my comment re sizes above...I learnt to hunt in the 80s so VERY well aware of it.
which takes us back to the comments of "controlled" culling.......and then the "controls" over Aireal assisted hunting need to be addressed
bottom line is that DOC have mandate to remove them from all sorts of places and lots of folks jumping up n down to remove them from everywhere else so there is little effort to slow down ANY killing of thar/chammy/deer/pigs/goats .
the easing of regulations over handheld thermal devices shows this very well.....they have proven to aid in "killing animals'' so are now seen as a "good tool"...we know the whirlybird has been seen in same light forever by powers that be...and when they,the operators are picking up the bill for it even betterer still

Mickey the point is that you keep missing, the one activity that really devalues and corrodes any ability too have workable management, Is the helihunting and shooting of immature or young mature bulls. As what appears to happen in the video. Its not what Tim says, or anyone else. its what is presented and what is not said.

I think the guides discussing management, while not bringing the biggest factor too the table is misleading and dishonest.

This from Marcus Pinney.

[QUOTE we were exporting around 1100 tahr trophies annually. While it is fair to say that probably half these animals would have come from private land, the 10,000 limit in the HTCP includes private land too. It seems probable that NZ recreational hunters would have been removing a similar number of bulls annually to that being exported suggesting a total annual harvest approaching 2000 bulls pre-covid. So what resource are we left with if DOC reach the intervention densities stipulated in the HTCP? Modelling of game herds indicates that a population of 10 000 tahr across all land tenures would only produce around 200 6-year-old plus trophy bulls annually. A mere 10% of the pre-covid harvest.[/QUOTE]

Our herd is drastically reduced since then. Yet our harvest has not. The crash in the mature Bull cohort is well under way and will become more and more noticeable each year from now.

Funny. I started to watch this video the other day but got a bit peeved before I got to the bits that are being referred to in this thread. And the points raised by @whanahuia make me feel even worse, I agree that this situation is not a good one for the herd.

I love Tahr hunting, not for the trophies but for the mountains. I shoot the odd one, usually for meat and have a very nice skin to remind me where I like to be. Having said that its a heck of a good thing for guys to want too have a big head for the wall. I also love sharing the mountains with visitors and seeing them take home some sort of "reminder" be it a trophy, memory or just sore feet.

And it's really the "sore feet" that pisses me off most about guys guiding on Tahr. I have flown in a couple of times with visitors "as friends", and each time they have had the legs walked off them, neither took a real trophy but both still call me to talk about "their hunt". Too me that's the way it should be with professional guides as well. I don't think that there was any hazing in the video under discussion but it also wasn't "fair chase" in the Kiwi way of "sore feet".

I hear there is still a bit of hazing going on and this highlights the problem of the "professional guides" in NZ, with no statutory framework for how we as a community value our game animals and hunting heritage, and a lot of money at stake, ethics and past practices are easily bent, as evidenced by some previous discussions on this forum from PH's.

The GAC certainly has a role (a statutory one in fact) in representing the interests of PHs but it should also be making it very clear to visitors "how we hunt" in NZ so guys like Dan Cabela don't hunt with "unintended consequences" - like trashing the trophy potential of the herd.

When the mature bulls get thin on the ground on public land, private land bulls will become more valuable and the guides will make even more money from them so the incentive to heli hunt them to that point like they are currently doing is high. Just ask any taxidermist in the South Island how business is. Heli hunting of tahr and Chamois is more active than it ever has been, the pilots and behind the wire types guides only care about one thing and it ain't the welfare of the animals.

Yep, thats what im hearing. The race is on to get the final pieces of the pie before its gone.

I'm not saying your wrong. We have been here before when the big bulls were going out on strop for meat.the herds will survive,adapt and keep on doing their thing. Scrub bulls n cave bills n steeper than steep slope bulls will endure n grow big n old..just like before.AND if overall population DOES include behind the wire.well the likes of Roonies stew point station will need to be addressed or as I've said before armageddon days....he could conceivably hold 70-80% of entire allows population. I've been told his land already holds huge numbers of Canada geese that are not allowed to be shot by Joe public...even his staff are servery restricted with pigs n deer. Where there is a $ to be made,rules n ethics go out the window.the 24hrs from being in air till burning powder or even 6hrs would make HUGE difference...but at huge reduction to the helihunt tax take.