Thread: A question for the doubters

Another factor is the change in technology and the shared expertise to use it. Rangefinders have come onto vommon use in the last 20 years or so. Prior to that estimating thd range was at least as hard to do as reading wind, possibly more so. The ability to know the exact range past 150M is one surr factor in achieving good shot placement, with a consequent increase in the effectiveness of calibres like 223 etc.

I would say if you had a large stag at 50m in front of you, your chance or margin of error increases with a larger projectile. Not saying the smaller one wont work but there is a bigger chance it wont kill outright with a smaller pill, just science.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

To be clear, I’m not in this to put anyone’s nose out of joint. I’d be more than happy for someone to convince me with DATA (not yarns) why I should swap the scope from my .223 to the 6.5. I just haven’t seen any difference in getting deer on the deck between any of the cartridges I’ve shot deer with. One thing is certain though, my accuracy has improved with the smaller ones.

Even "less drift" at range isn't as clear cut at improving hit probability as we might think. This is a whole different kettle of fish - but it is sort of related. I'll start a thread on hit probability one day. May as well kill all the sacred cows.



For now here's a glimpse - a very small 6mm cartridge with a 108gr at 2700fps has the same hit probability at 500m on a 200mm dia circle as a 6.5PRC or a 7mm Rem Mag, with the median wind estimation error being 0.5ms and all other variables being "ideal". And has enough velocity for the bullet to fragment.

Of course increased recoil and cost tends to move the variables further away from "ideal" for larger cartridges more than smaller.

I was using my 7mm rem mag for about the first 10 deer I shot and my furtherest shot was 490 meters.

I have shot over 20 deer with my 223, shoulder shots, neck shots and head shots with the longest shot being 340 meters.

I can honestly say all wounds were massive and deer died on the spot, nothing more special about bullet placement than the 7mm and if hit in the shoulder bones were shattered and massive wound.

So the thing for me is I can shoot my 223 that is deadly accurate, has no recoil so its very enjoyable to use and I get the same if not better results.

Taking all this into consideration I can't see the 7mm leaving the gun safe any time soon or into the foreseeable future as there is just no need.

I really don't care what the nay sayers have to say, I'm loving the 223 and anyone else can just use whatever they like.

A big shout out to @Thar for converting me, mate you should be given royalties for every 223 sold

So I do agree if we compare apples with apples the results speak for themselves. I've always found it fooking annoying how folks will say how fantastic a .280rem is or any .284 calibre cartridge,theyslay animals like a bolk of lightning with any bullet from 120-160grns ....but a .270w is gay,they destroy to much meat in one breath yet zip through with no damage in the next. You poke the same make n model projectile at similar velocity out of pretty much and cartridge into something and it will behave very closely to any other the same. 75-80 grns at 2700 is always 75-80 grns at 2700. And 150 grns at 2800fps is also 150 at 2800. All will kill if poked in the important bits. Let the red stuff out n sunlight in and they die. Horses for courses the much maligned 55grn cup n core are still killing deer,when shot placement is good and range kept down a bit...... Nah nah nah don't get all uppity,you can't have it both ways. AS LONG as we consider the limits and stick to them,if animals die humanly. Life is good.its windy as fook outside at moment and predicted to be same tomorrow.im going bush hunting with very limited opportunity for longer shot,but it's always on cards,so I will take the .270

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

So I do agree if we compare apples with apples the results speak for themselves. I've always found it fooking annoying how folks will say how fantastic a .280rem is or any .284 calibre cartridge,theyslay animals like a bolk of lightning with any bullet from 120-160grns ....but a .270w is gay,they destroy to much meat in one breath yet zip through with no damage in the next. You poke the same make n model projectile at similar velocity out of pretty much and cartridge into something and it will behave very closely to any other the same. 75-80 grns at 2700 is always 75-80 grns at 2700. And 150 grns at 2800fps is also 150 at 2800. All will kill if poked in the important bits. Let the red stuff out n sunlight in and they die. Horses for courses the much maligned 55grn cup n core are still killing deer,when shot placement is good and range kept down a bit...... Nah nah nah don't get all uppity,you can't have it both ways. AS LONG as we consider the limits and stick to them,if animals die humanly. Life is good.its windy as fook outside at moment and predicted to be same tomorrow.im going bush hunting with very limited opportunity for longer shot,but it's always on cards,so I will take the .270

Mate I think most people call 270's gay as a joke and not being serious, the 270 is as good as any other calibre.

Yea mate cartridge wars are silly. The only shit one is .270 like you said already above

Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

Mate I think most people call 270's gay as a joke and not being serious, the 270 is as good as any other calibre.

No they really are gay

The thing with "margin for error" is that permanent wound cavities aren't really that different in size that you can significantly miss the important bits with larger bullet vs. a smaller bullet and still expect to achieve a good result. A gut shot is a gut shot no matter what. The extra diameter of wound cavities we are talking about is a centimetre or 2. The difference in gel of the max permanent cavity of the 75gr .223 bullet above vs the .308 155gr is .75inches wider radius. This gives you 18mm more margin of error for a bad shot. But then again that's a .223 bullet going 2200fps vs a .308 at 2789.



Unfortunately there are no gel test results for say, an 80gr ELDM at 2800fps. There is a 75gr BTHP TAP at 2750. This is a bad bullet. It does not fragment predictably - fragmentation is dependent on tumbling for this bullet. However the permanent cavity is only 6mm smaller in radius than the .308 bullet.


6mm extra margin for error hardly seems significant when you're shooting a deer.

If someone has an alternative rational, data-driven approach for assessing these things, by all means present it. At present though, gel tests in calibrated gelatin seem to be the only objective comparative metric that allows us to compare the significant component of wounding

Another thing is the amount of mud and other things like that on some animals, a professional shooter who mostly uses 223 on mostly reds told me he has lost stags in the roar with the 223 so carries something snottier at that time.

Originally Posted by Tentman

Another thing is the amount of mud and other things like that on some animals, a professional shooter who mostly uses 223 on mostly reds told me he has lost stags in the roar with the 223 so carries something snottier at that time.

What bullet does he use?

"Factory" ammo from Belmont mostly, I dont know for sure which load, must ask him next time I see him in the coffee shop!

Originally Posted by Tentman

"Factory" ammo from Belmont mostly, I dont know for sure which load, must ask him next time I see him in the coffee shop!

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

.223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets

Belmont don't make a good .223 load. The nearest thing they make is the old 77gr SMK load. the 77gr SMK is a bad bullet. It does not work consistently.


The professional hunters I work with use whatever is cheap and in bulk in .223, 55gr mainly. The 60gr Vmax is popular for goats. Some are coming round to the advantages of things like the Hornady 73gr ELDM factory load.

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

culling I shot a lot of deer with a .222 which is very close to a .223 really but I would not recommend it - lost a few and thats never good -223 will do the job but really its a damn small cartridge for big reds - ideal head shooting fallow for meat - and perfect medicine for goats - ( goats 22.250 much better ) in the right hands both 222 and 223 will do but

I'm with Barry on this one.
I have the t shirt.

Sent from my SM-A556E using Tapatalk

Originally Posted by Tentman

Another thing is the amount of mud and other things like that on some animals, a professional shooter who mostly uses 223 on mostly reds told me he has lost stags in the roar with the 223 so carries something snottier at that time.

I hope he keeps that secret from non-nato countries! No need for Kevlar body armour, just plaster yourself in mud and you’re good to go!

Three pages in and no one has attempted to answer the question. What would it take to me you believe that 22 centrefires are legitimate deer hunting cartridges?

What I see is a community of people that are so intrenched in the ‘folklore’ of it all, that they’re unable to ratify a logical point backed by data. I think that no matter what I or @gimp or @Tahr or anyone else for that matter did with a .223, it would be considered some kind of exception. If I shot an 8pt stag the argument would be - ‘12 point stags are just so much harder/stronger/thicker/whatever’.

Nothing personal against anyone that has posted, it’s more an observation about the shooting and hunting community. We all grew up with the BS written by people to sell shit, and we can’t see past it despite of overwhelming evidence.