Thread: A question for the doubters

I'm not decrying the 224s, heck I've just built a 22CM for nightshooting and I have absolutely no doubts about its future performance on grass thieves (big and small).

For my sins I'm a fencer, for years all anybody used was a sub 200Kg hammer, now most contractors are running 300 plus, there was nothing that didn't get done with 200 but 300 is faster, easier and much preferred. A bit the same with cartridges.

I just got off phone to my elderly Dad. He had a .22savage highpower( think I have name right way around now) very accurate he said,could head shoot pigeons ( they were legitimate bush tucker until about 45 years ago) I mentioned that I now can load my .223 to be almost identical to the old round. He retold me how he had shot a red stag at 650yards all those years ago..... Pre rangefinder....he went back and did triangulation thing to work out the range as knew it was a loooong way. So even given error in measuring and stretching of time it was still a very long shot for a blunt 70grn soft cup n core projectiles speeding along at previously unheard of speed of 2800fps. The other interesting titbit of info about that rifle is there were two with same serial number in registry...caused him some grief...I'm 52 and that rifle was long gone before I was around.

Its just an ever ending circle about placement compared to caliber. Perhaps in the overseas market they are encouraged to go heavy becaus ... well you never know whats stalking you? And a caliber with plenty of stopping powewr is prefered.
The arguments here in NZ are always full of good pro's and cons. I think its more about what you and your ethics want. Just get out there and shoot.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I hope he keeps that secret from non-nato countries! No need for Kevlar body armour, just plaster yourself in mud and you’re good to go!

Three pages in and no one has attempted to answer the question. What would it take to me you believe that 22 centrefires are legitimate deer hunting cartridges?

What I see is a community of people that are so intrenched in the ‘folklore’ of it all, that they’re unable to ratify a logical point backed by data. I think that no matter what I or @gimp or @Tahr or anyone else for that matter did with a .223, it would be considered some kind of exception. If I shot an 8pt stag the argument would be - ‘12 point stags are just so much harder/stronger/thicker/whatever’.

Nothing personal against anyone that has posted, it’s more an observation about the shooting and hunting community. We all grew up with the BS written by people to sell shit, and we can’t see past it despite of overwhelming evidence.

yeah but hunter nick we all had fun on a shitty wet day great discussion no one threw their toys out of the cot as so often happens great stuff

Have heard described the damage to a fallow from a bullet wound, went through the front shoulder, clipped the back end of one lung, damaged a lot of internal organs, and ended up breaking a back leg on the way out. Animal was lost at the time, but shot and killed for humane reasons about two weeks later as a 'lame' animal - hunter was really surprised at the damage and the fact the animal was still alive although not well at all. Gangrene, stink rot etc etc...

Have seen a big red stag hit square in the shoulder with a .308 at bush range, bullet blew up on the mud encrusting it's shoulder from wallowing and animal was lost due to a very large but shallow surface wound.

A red hind, shot and killed in very poor condition with a .22 caliber lead projectile found in the left rear knee.

Feral cattle beast, shot and then found with a .22 caliber lead bullet under the skin against the skull.

A few others but you get the drift - I think @gimp nailed it with his first answer it's not the caliber it's the point of impact and the construction and efficiency of the bullet to expand in the right penetration distance to reach the correct vital spot to do the maximum (right) amount of damage. It's not the size of the exit or entry holes - it's the damage to vital hydraulic and comms network infrastructure and to a lesser extent pneumatic equipment on the way through that anchors animals for us. It's the same as humans - we look at super fit athletes with broadly similar lung capacity etc as normal people and go how the hell do they do that? The amount of fitness they have means they've trained their muscles to still perform in an oxygen and fuel deficient state without failing as quickly as the rest of us, which is the same effectively as most animals we hunt. We shoot an animal with something that doesn't do massive damage on the way through, the animal's muscles will still function enough to get them the hell out of dodge as a survival instinct thing. It doesn't matter if it is a big bullet hitting somewhere not vital or a little bullet doing the same thing, won't anchor the animal. A decent bullet hitting a vital spot, that opens out correctly and creates a big would channel and dumps most of it's energy for good hydraulic shock effect will usually anchor you the animal every time.

A bigger (or more correctly wider/larger caliber) bullet is easier to set up to offer more controlled expansion and more reliable energy transfer, and carries more energy at time of impact than a smaller bullet which is what we class as a greater 'margin for cockups' as hunters. A smaller caliber will do the mahi, but it is more susceptible to crap in the way or other issues than a bigger caliber but having said that the big cannons can still have the odd random failure (the .308 on the shoulder I mentioned above).

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I hope he keeps that secret from non-nato countries! No need for Kevlar body armour, just plaster yourself in mud and you’re good to go!

Three pages in and no one has attempted to answer the question. What would it take to me you believe that 22 centrefires are legitimate deer hunting cartridges?

What I see is a community of people that are so intrenched in the ‘folklore’ of it all, that they’re unable to ratify a logical point backed by data. I think that no matter what I or @gimp or @Tahr or anyone else for that matter did with a .223, it would be considered some kind of exception. If I shot an 8pt stag the argument would be - ‘12 point stags are just so much harder/stronger/thicker/whatever’.

Nothing personal against anyone that has posted, it’s more an observation about the shooting and hunting community. We all grew up with the BS written by people to sell shit, and we can’t see past it despite of overwhelming evidence.

I guess I could have provided better context in my earlier post..... essentially suggesting that in my view its more than simply the killing efficacy that matters? Extending the example I used, I don't doubt that bush shot Sika I referred to would have tipped up just the same if I'd used a .223 with a decent projectile, rather than my .308. But I'm even more confident I wouldn't have found/recovered as many.

Originally Posted by gimp

The thing with "margin for error" is that permanent wound cavities aren't really that different in size that you can significantly miss the important bits with larger bullet vs. a smaller bullet and still expect to achieve a good result. A gut shot is a gut shot no matter what. The extra diameter of wound cavities we are talking about is a centimetre or 2. The difference in gel of the max permanent cavity of the 75gr .223 bullet above vs the .308 155gr is .75inches wider radius. This gives you 18mm more margin of error for a bad shot. But then again that's a .223 bullet going 2200fps vs a .308 at 2789.



Unfortunately there are no gel test results for say, an 80gr ELDM at 2800fps. There is a 75gr BTHP TAP at 2750. This is a bad bullet. It does not fragment predictably - fragmentation is dependent on tumbling for this bullet. However the permanent cavity is only 6mm smaller in radius than the .308 bullet.


6mm extra margin for error hardly seems significant when you're shooting a deer.

If someone has an alternative rational, data-driven approach for assessing these things, by all means present it. At present though, gel tests in calibrated gelatin seem to be the only objective comparative metric that allows us to compare the significant component of wounding

Momentum counts for a lot also.

I’ve shot deer with 222 and 223, never lost any ( but close to looking a big red hind with a through and through which I blame on the PMC projectile not expanding properly- went between ribs on entry and exit).
But once I got the Finnwolf I pretty much stud with using it with CAC 180 grain hollow points then when they ran out it was 165grain Lapua projectiles.
With the 308 I had less concern when bush hunting regarding twigs between me and the deer (which I HAD identified 100% as being deer).
Nothing against 222 & 223, just you need to have a clear(er) route to the target)

PS: on a really REALLY wet day up the Young when I could clearly see the spiker but hardly see through the scope I dropped the spiker AFTER the 180 grain CAC had gone through a young beech tree the diameter of a beer stubby. THEN went through the the spiker and stopping under the skin on the far side.

Watching with interest. :lol:

Originally Posted by gimp

Belmont don't make a good .223 load. The nearest thing they make is the old 77gr SMK load. the 77gr SMK is a bad bullet. It does not work consistently.


The professional hunters I work with use whatever is cheap and in bulk in .223, 55gr mainly. The 60gr Vmax is popular for goats. Some are coming round to the advantages of things like the Hornady 73gr ELDM factory load.

Not full time hunting but for last few years just buy Belmont 55 gr 1000 rnd bulk. Use for deer, goats, pigs, whatever. Also used a lot of Hornady training? ammo and Barnaul 55/62 gr. It all kills fine. Also experiment with various hand loads especially when Belmont was in short supply. It all works, just got to know the limits, same with any caliber.

@Hunter_Nick. It is obvious that you consider the 223rem to be more that adequate on deer (as do I, although not always my first choice).
Hypothetically speaking, is there a point (an animal) at which you would draw the line when it comes to the 223s killing capability and say yeah, nah?
It sounds like a mature red stag poses no issue. What about a mature Wapiti bull? A mature bull moose? An Eland? Cape buffalo? I assume there is must be some end point to the 223s magic?

Originally Posted by woods223

Not full time hunting but for last few years just buy Belmont 55 gr 1000 rnd bulk. Use for deer, goats, pigs, whatever. Also used a lot of Hornady training? ammo and Barnaul 55/62 gr. It all kills fine. Also experiment with various hand loads especially when Belmont was in short supply. It all works, just got to know the limits, same with any caliber.

You cant say that, Gimp said they are bad bullets and I believe him. PPU 55 grn now thats a different story.......I hope

Originally Posted by Shearer

@Hunter_Nick. It is obvious that you consider the 223rem to be more that adequate on deer (as do I, although not always my first choice).
Hypothetically speaking, is there a point (an animal) at which you would draw the line when it comes to the 223s killing capability and say yeah, nah?
It sounds like a mature red stag poses no issue. What about a mature Wapiti bull? A mature bull moose? An Eland? Cape buffalo? I assume there is must be some end point to the 223s magic?

Nick once took down a bull elephant with a 22lr mate, nuff said

Originally Posted by Gibo

Nick once took down a bull elephant with a 22lr mate, nuff said

Well actually there was a poacher caught killing elephants.when questioned how he did it they didn't believe him till shown. He laid down beside trail and fired 22 short up into armpit/heart .then waited till animal fell over bled out. It's all about placement lol

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Well actually there was a poacher caught killing elephants.when questioned how he did it they didn't believe him till shown. He laid down beside trail and fired 22 short up into armpit/heart .then waited till animal fell over bled out. It's all about placement lol

Stop it