Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by Gibo

Nick once took down a bull elephant with a 22lr mate, nuff said

I think you will find that was Bunji who did that, but he did have his pet 25foot Croc holding its back leg for him to get the shot.

Originally Posted by Gibo

Nick once took down a bull elephant with a 22lr mate, nuff said

I’d be surprised if it was charging him though!

PS .22short is holding the record for smallest bullet to kill an elephant.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Ok, so I take it that 14 dead red stags isn’t enough then….. how many will it take?
And what ‘extra’ does a 308 or .270 give you? Death doesn’t come in varying levels of severity. If you said less wind drift and fps at range, then sure we could talk about that.

To be clear, I’m not in this to put anyone’s nose out of joint. I’d be more than happy for someone to convince me with DATA (not yarns) why I should swap the scope from my .223 to the 6.5. I just haven’t seen any difference in getting deer on the deck between any of the cartridges I’ve shot deer with. One thing is certain though, my accuracy has improved with the smaller ones.

I think you miss the point. 3 or 4 hunters out of all those posting. Dont get me wrong, the 223 is a fantastic cartridge! Ive used one for most of the last 30 years. I like it. But if Im doing a multi day trip for red stags or bull Thar etc where I really want to kill something, Ill take my 270 every time.
Reasons, more destruction of bone and skin. Bigger exit wound. Easier blood trail to follow. More chance of a bang flop, more options on hasty shots or difficult angles or small windows.

Originally Posted by Gibo

You cant say that, Gimp said they are bad bullets and I believe him. PPU 55 grn now thats a different story.......I hope

Bad in the context of "not at the optimal end of the range". Yeah you can use a 147gr fmj in your .308 too and in some circumstances it makes sense, but it isn't optimal for creating large wounds

Originally Posted by Shearer

@Hunter_Nick. It is obvious that you consider the 223rem to be more that adequate on deer (as do I, although not always my first choice).
Hypothetically speaking, is there a point (an animal) at which you would draw the line when it comes to the 223s killing capability and say yeah, nah?
It sounds like a mature red stag poses no issue. What about a mature Wapiti bull? A mature bull moose? An Eland? Cape buffalo? I assume there is must be some end point to the 223s magic?

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

I'm considering taking mine for wild cattle in October.

I could start a thread documenting my attempt to kill every species of game animal in the country with the .223, but I’m such a shit hunter, most of us will be dead before I complete it!

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

Would those times be less frequent if you were using a more powerful "traditional" deer cartridge?
Not sure I get what you mean about the wild cattle?

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I hope he keeps that secret from non-nato countries! No need for Kevlar body armour, just plaster yourself in mud and you’re good to go!

Three pages in and no one has attempted to answer the question. What would it take to me you believe that 22 centrefires are legitimate deer hunting cartridges?

What I see is a community of people that are so intrenched in the ‘folklore’ of it all, that they’re unable to ratify a logical point backed by data. I think that no matter what I or @gimp or @Tahr or anyone else for that matter did with a .223, it would be considered some kind of exception. If I shot an 8pt stag the argument would be - ‘12 point stags are just so much harder/stronger/thicker/whatever’.

Nothing personal against anyone that has posted, it’s more an observation about the shooting and hunting community. We all grew up with the BS written by people to sell shit, and we can’t see past it despite of overwhelming evidence.

I think you are missing the point that myself and a lot of other people are making, the type of bullet, the point of impact and the internals damaged on the way through are usually more important than the actual caliber used. A .223 with a good, modern tough bullet may drop a stag quicker than a .308 with a lighter more soft bullet intended for smaller game.

Put another way, if I'm out with a .223 and a decent stag walks in front of me do you think I'm going to unload and say nup? No, but am I going to be a lot more particular about my shot placement than if I had a bigger caliber? Yes. Am I going to take a pot shot at a piss-me-off stoat with a big magnum? No, for the other reason the round is just going to go through into and onward forever.

Originally Posted by Shearer

Would those times be less frequent if you were using a more powerful "traditional" deer cartridge?
Not sure I get what you mean about the wild cattle?

Could only be less frequent if the more ‘traditional’ cartridge had less wind drift. That’s basically why I built a 22 creedmoor, because I’m not awesome enough to shoot big guns well. That’s the windy day gun. As for the animal giving a decent shot angle, that doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.

As for the wild cattle, I’m too chicken shit to hunt them with anything!

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Anything that walks this country, except for wild cattle. I wouldn’t hunt them with anything that I could shoulder and shoot accurately.
There’s times when you have to walk away, and that’s if they don’t present a decent angle, or of it’s too windy for the distance.

Na, haven’t shot an elephant with my .22 @Gibo but I did shoot a spiker with it out spotlighting possums. Never again.

My first years of hunting were goat culling on a family farm - predominantly with a .22lr. That’s how I was taught, knew no different. There were limits though, head and neck shots only and the ammo of choice was Winchester Lazer.

If they aren't steamed they drop the same as anything else. It's only when their blood is boiling that they get dodgy. .308 into the brain box doesn't help them much, they keep going if they have momentum but the control and central processing unit stops working and they tend to go in the straight line through everything until they either run out of go forward or something trips them up and they go down in a thrashing heap. I used to have a semi auto for those things, now not an option.

The military 147gr FMJ is designed for a totally different purpose than hunting rounds - they aren't intended for humane kills they are intended for Geneva Convention compliance.

The Hague convention of 1899 actually

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Could only be less frequent if the more ‘traditional’ cartridge had less wind drift. That’s basically why I built a 22 creedmoor, because I’m not awesome enough to shoot big guns well. That’s the windy day gun. As for the animal giving a decent shot angle, that doesn’t change regardless of cartridge.

As for the wild cattle, I’m too chicken shit to hunt them with anything!

There's little advantage to anything else in hit probability until you're past maybe 400 metres.

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

I could start a thread documenting my attempt to kill every species of game animal in the country with the .223, but I’m such a shit hunter, most of us will be dead before I complete it!

I have not taken a wapiti Samberg or rusa with .270 but have taken pretty much everything else mostly with 130 grn.

Years back my older brother,father and farm owner were out back of farm,huge hereford bullock who was completely feral was seen at close range on farm track.farm owner said"that would make good beef" blap blah.went brothers mini 14 two rounds into head and the hard work began.luckily they could get tractor to him. I didn't see beast but along with meat a cannon bone n foot came home.it was huge. Shot placement within range.