Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

What would it take for you to be convinced that a .223 with heavy for caliber (73-88gr) bullets is a LEGITIMATE deer hunting cartridge? How many deer would I (or others) have to kill for the non-sensical arguments to abate? (Bullets blowing up on shoulders, lack of penetration, margin for error with larger calibres etc etc)

Hey, I’m fully aware that caliber debate is one of those never ending things, but I’m just interested to see what objective measure is proposed.

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Originally Posted by gimp

How many deer have you shot with a .223 with heavy bullets? How far did they penetrate?

Bullet construction, sectional density, kinetic energy and frontal surface area all play a role. In the case of .223, the frontal surface area is relatively low and the KE is disproportionately high.
So yes it's possible that a specific .223 cartridge will have more penetration than a specific .308...Sure, I could buy that.
If you told me that the 5.56 EPR (M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round) penetrated better than a 7.62 hollowpoint or even 7.62 ball, I’d believe you. I’d probably still look for the data but at face value that would sound very plausible.

Originally Posted by Hermitage

Hunter Nick I'll answer your question directly:
I don't believe there is any objective measure that can prove to me that the .223 (even with heavy for calibre 73-88gr fast twist bullets) is a legitimate deer hunting cartridge when COMPARED to larger calibres.
This is due to basic physics...the larger calibres outperform the .223 ballistically, penetrating deeper and transferring more energy. They are just superior in range, power, and penetration.
As you implied caliber debate is never ending... they are always a bit silly, and people rarely prove one popular cartridge is better than another. Different rounds have different purposes, and there is plenty of room at the table for everyone to sit.

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Im not sure thats whats being said. I accept the 223 can foot it in big game hunting. Im just not sure it can claim equality.

Originally Posted by Tentman

The 224 bullet designs of the last 10-15 years lie right at the heart of
what is annoying @Hunter_Nick viz a viz people not accepting that rhe 224s can now foot it with bigger calibres. The Sectional Density (SD) and better jacket to core performance of them HAS changed the game. And much of the shooting world hasnt really noticed!

Im not real keen on being the Guinea pig to try out new bullet designs on game but once its been "done", for me its game on, hence the 22 CM thats now in the cabinet with the "deer hunting rifles!

Hey, I’m not annoyed about anything. I was just interested to see if someone would lay down a challenge, as it would be something fun that could potentially raise a few eyebrows. To be fair, I think I’ll just go ahead and make up my own challenge anyway!

I really shouldn’t have expected any different from beginning a thread like this. I have bought shame on my family…..