Thread: A question for the doubters

Originally Posted by gimp

Why do you think deer don't drop every time from shock with a front shoulder/lung placement, even with very large bullets and high impact energy, if that is the mechanism that causes it?


I think the "instant incapacitation" is either CNS damage from bullet or bone fragments, or enough of the lungs and major blood vessels being destroyed by the wound channel that there's more or less instant loss of blood pressure. But whether or not it happens appears to be highly placement specific

Its CNS damage that cause them to drop on the spot.

The autonomic nervous system has three main parts, sympathetic (flight or fight response), parasympathetic (rest & digest) and enteric (gastro function). The main autonomic nerve pathway we’re interested in runs from the brain down the neck with the carotid & jugular arteries, then into the thoracic cavity. This is the vagus nerve, which controls the heart & lungs. If you put a bullet, or multiple fragments thereof, through the the “junction box” of the aorta, front lungs / pulmonary arteries, just above and in front of the top of the heart (the hilar), then you will 95% of the time destroy the vagus nerves. Basically the brain is instantly disconnected from the engine room. In my experience, the collapse is usually more of a tipping over, the animal might stagger for a couple of seconds before it falls over sideways.

The other cause of instant collapse from a chest / shoulder shot is hitting the thoracic spinal nerves that form part of the somatic nervous system, which controls movement & locomotion. These are the nerves that emerge down from the spine in line with the thoracic vertebrae, T1-T12, into the front legs and flanks. These nerves (brachial plexus) are what you are aiming for with the high shoulder shot. If you hit spinal nerves below the spine it will cause the classic instant collapse, with the rump then front end crashing down without so much as a step. You don’t have to hit vertebrae directly to damage the spinal nerves, a wide temporal wound cavity and shock wave from a very rapidly expanding bullet will do it without much difficulty.

Quite often NZ hunters will use a soft fragmenting (frangible) bullet and aim for the mid point of the shoulder, halfway between the animal’s top line and brisket, in line with the foreleg. What will actually happen is you’ll get either the hilar or the high shoulder, or sometimes a bit of both, depending where the bullet actually hits and what it does immediately after. I’ve had some small caliber bullets do some very funky things in the front end of red deer as they open up, traveling almost sideways or straight up, or both. The Sierra Prohunter is very good at doing that, especially if you hit bone at an angle. It doesn’t open up into a nice even mushroom, the bullet is torn open into an ugly, sharp, spinning, weight shedding tearing machine. What that means is you’re covering more ground inside the animal and doing more damage along the way, than a nice even copper mono bullet for example.

I’ve always believed the preference for softer “match” type bullets here in NZ sets us apart from many other parts of the world, where historically the practice has been distinctly frowned upon. Particularly in the US. But as has been discussed in this thread already, bullets like ELD-M and TMK in small calibres are starting to get some proper attention in the US as guys realize there’s a lot more to this Kiwi style bang-floppery than just pot luck. I’ve never really understood why a lot of the guys over there don’t get it. They can get really upset about it! I mean they use soft fragmenting varmint bullets for coyotes for example, and sack them on the spot without a second thought. It’s exactly the same mechanism for deer. It just means the deer is right there where you shot it, instead of half way across the county.

Last year I had great success with the .224 cal Speer semi-point Varmint, 70gr, in my Howa Mini .223. It’s an old design with a lousy BC but for an ugly old bullet it’s farkin’ unreal how it will bowl over red hinds with a hilar shot. Just take your time and pick your angle. I’m talking relatively close range shots, 100-200m. Bang. Flop. You might get the old one stagger about a bit but I’ve yet to have one disappear off into the timber. To be honest I stopped overthinking it (cos I used to, a lot) and now I’ll shoot a deer with whatever is at hand. If I was to go for another deer rifle for general purpose use, I’d almost certainly go for a powerful fast twist .224 cal, either .22 Creedmoor or .22-250, and shoot 80gr ELD-M. But in the meantime one of the .223s will do just fine.