Thread: A question for the doubters

This has been a fantastic thread to read through
It's very hard for most to understand that a 22cm pushing 88eldm has 3 times the energy of a 168smk from a 308 at 500 yards it just doesn't make sense while doing it it with half the drop and half the drift.
The more set in there idea guys struggle even more.
New projectiles and chamberings have certainly changed my veiws on what's possible with the new. 22
Oh and the 270 belongs in a museum

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Originally Posted by BRADS

This has been a fantastic thread to read through
It's very hard for most to understand that a 22cm pushing 88eldm has 3 times the energy of a 168smk from a 308 at 500 yards it just doesn't make sense while doing it it with half the drop and half the drift.
The more set in there idea guys struggle even more.
New projectiles and chamberings have certainly changed my veiws on what's possible with the new. 22
Oh and the 270 belongs in a museum

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It just makes so much sense when you're at that moment a big animal that was 80M away has paused after running 200+ metres up a ridge or fence line etc and you know you don't have time to range or dial (unless maybe you're a @Tahr with enough gumption to push the rangeee button on your day/night thingee).

Horses for courses.
It's not all about energy.
Not the same as deer I know but for dangerous game like cape buff 5000ftlbs out of a 416 is not the same as from something smaller and faster.
The big calibres need to smash and break bone and lots of it hopefully taking out some soft bits on the way.
Back in the day they even promoted solids but recently the premium softpoints can do the majority
They even have calibre restrictions for that reason. Again not the same as a deer really as we do know that the smaller calibres can work and work well.
What we do know is that there is sometimes less leeway and smaller margins of error

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Ahhhh the "mystical void" has finally been mentioned. In theory it exists above lungs but below spine and on a true broadside if your luck is really bad you can thread the needle between rib bones and hit nothing of importance,slight shock towards spine can drop animal who recovers and takes off. I've had a "dead" wallaby come round in boot of car when home in the city( some quick grabbing and smack on head with short pribar sorted that one) had been hit with buckshot hours earlier. The other one is opening game bag,duck flies out and we fall over laughing about it.apparently not uncommon for bird to be stunned and recover.lost fat mallard that dropped from sky then recovered and flew off as dog approached.

A mate had a dog jump in just as he shot a bailed pig. Put a 44mag right through the rib cage. Everyone thought we were down one dog, but he walked out of the bush and after a rest fully recovered.

Originally Posted by BRADS

This has been a fantastic thread to read through
It's very hard for most to understand that a 22cm pushing 88eldm has 3 times the energy of a 168smk from a 308 at 500 yards it just doesn't make sense while doing it it with half the drop and half the drift.
The more set in there idea guys struggle even more.
New projectiles and chamberings have certainly changed my veiws on what's possible with the new. 22
Oh and the 270 belongs in a museum

Sent from my SM-S916B using Tapatalk

I could not find much on it admittedly with the 22CM, so you might be able to point me in the right direction. The only data I could find showed the examples you gave as pretty much identical energy at 500 yards.

https://ammo.com/ballistics/22-creedmoor-ballistics

https://www.sierrabullets.com/308-wi...jectory-chart/

Under that distance the 308 was ahead. And Id suggest that outside of forums, and maybe even on them, most animals are killed well under 500 yards.

Funny thing about numbers on paper or screen. They only tell part of the story. On paper under 300 yards a 110grn .277 projectiles beats a heavier projectiles hands down. Flatter trajectory and more energy. BUT projectiles construction isn't taken into account at all. I've used Barnes 110grn... Very hot hum about them.yip killed ok but slower than heavier cup n core jobbies. Or at other end of spectrum 110 fbhp Hornady( now replaced/superseded by VMAX) awesome pill on wallabies,light recoil flat trajectory and the explode internally,great on light wallabies terrible on anything bigger.

It's all a balancing act. If you like your rifle,whatever it is,it's good to carry n easy to shoot well,chances are you will take it over anything else...trick is to find or tune a load to do what you want it to do so you happy all around. I carry a few heavier or Barnes loads for my 223 to fill that requirement. Did carry subsonic round for 308 and 7.62x39mm for small stuff. The mighty 30/06 was replaced in military by a shorter lighter round,the 308, it in turn got replaced by shorter n lighter again. The 223. We hunters enjoy the lighter aspect very much...the less recoil and noise bit even more... It's all about balance and what your happy with. Given a worked up boar/stag/bull I would be much happier with the 30/06 SOMETIMES extra horsepower is nice to have on hand.

Oh and the 270 belongs in a museum

why is it on the threads that sooner or later someone comes out with a widiculous statement - long live the mighty 270 still serving us proudly

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Long post here, but I hope you all enjoy it. it will make sense by the end i hope.


Part one.

As well as calving and feeding calves, its also tree planting time of the year. Right now Im part way through planting 1100 Eucalypts, Jap cedar, Walnuts and chestnuts.

With planting comes animal control/ resource management. I never call it pest control. its balance. I need to get the hares in the plantation area supressed so the trees have a chance.
So the first fine night this week saw me out with the .22 and subs, spotlighting. I came home really chuffed with myself! 16-18 hares seen. 14 shots fired at ranges from 20-60 meters. Most off hand with the spotlight in one hand and rifle in other resting on spotlight. Result- 12 dead hares with one other I think I got but lost track of where it was after the shot and couldn't find it in long grass.

The point of that is that right now Im shooting well and confidently.

Confidence makes a difference.

But there were a few that bolted before I felt comfortable with the distance. So today when the sun came out I took the next lot of trees and my 270 in case some longer shots presented.

Part two.

I get too the planting area, and bloody hell theres a pig in some rough country a couple of paddock back. I grab the rifle and cut round to get wind right and sneak up. As I get closer, the pig turns into a mob, rooting around in some cutover and sprayed out gorse im developing. I guess I get into about 40 meters from them when out of the bush comes 3 more and one is a decent boar. As he approaches I notice his size, the shield crease where it terminates on his foreleg, and the absolute width of his chest. Hes a big boy! And suddenly this thread pops into my mind at about the point in time he realises something is wrong!

Now I am sorry if I upset anyone, but whats in my mind is. As he pauses to look at me from 60 meters. That I would not take this quartering forward shot with my 6.5 grendel. Or a 243. And certainly not with a 223 no matter how good the projectile. It would be a headshot, or Id wait for him to turn and shooting him quartering away. That crease tells me hes got close to 50mm of sheild, plus bone at that angle. alot of it. If I wait for him to turn, he might run and reality is, doing so reduces my success by 20%.
Standing headshot. I know I can do it, but it increases risk that I dont feel when shooting hares.

But I have a 270! and so the projectile takes him on the point of the shoulder and he hits the ground with whatever colloquialism you choose. Sacked, bang flop etc.

Before I continue, Ill address the vids Gimp just posted. Most roe are harvested for market. The shot as seen there in the vid that is preferred is a behind the shoulder lung shot that damages little meat. With a heavy constructed projectile that will impart only some of its energy given the size of the deer. Having shot Roe, I can say they are prone to run in such cases.
I dont think anyone here is suggesting shooting reds or fallow with a 404 jeffery is particularly the optimum either.

Tahrs shot definitely transferred energy to the CNS. You can see it in the shiver the deer gave just after.

The boar went 170lb on the dot.

Heres the interesting bits so far.




The boar. Note the shield crease.



Front on showing his chest thickness.



The blood from his thoracic cavity.



Where the projectile went through his lungs.

Now as I read in the papers today, it said that the bigger the muscle/bone tissue of the animal, the more energy needed to create large permanent and temporary cavities.

So its not that surprising that the hole in the lungs of this boar is quite equivalent too the one from the arrow in Gimps photos.

Given the small size of the permanent cavity through the lungs, what dropped the boar on the spot long enough for him to bleed out and die? There is an entry wound and exit wound in the ribcage. Its probable Ive broken leg bones given the angle. Ill find out tomorrow. No obvious injury directly too the spine.

Unfortunately I don't have a standardised experimental 170lb pig to also shoot with the .223 to see if the wound looks any different. Have you got one I can borrow?

This however is the last pig I shot - in May, with a 55gr Nosler Etip from .223, he was trotting across a face at about 150m, the shot was placed in the front shoulder through the shield, dropped him on the spot, and he rolled down the hill. I'm unsure on time-to-death as he ended up in some scrub. Laminated A4 paper for scale. I don't have autopsy data available unfortunately. It broke bone and penetrated through the lungs - you can see the bloody foam on his nose. I'll go find another.

Impact energy was about 700ftlb. Impact velocity about 2400fps. The E-tip is a good non-lead bullet, unfortunately it is lighter than I would select for personal use - the exterior ballistics aren't great.

Originally Posted by Roarless20

Ever been corked in the thigh? =dead leg. You absolutely can have CNS shock without actual physical damage to the cns parts.
An example : i shot a sika stag @30m with the 6.5prc 123sst @2900pfs. The projectile deflected & popped after hitting brush of some sort. Hit 3 inches in front of the pelvis, it dropped on the shot before taking off on its front legs only while i put some follow up shots into it.
The piece of bullet was only some flat shaped copper jacket that went into the backsteak but didnt damged the spine.
Now i use bonded bullets in the bush.

a corked thigh is a muscle contusion - it sucks but it isn't CNS shock

Originally Posted by Shearer

To add to my last post. Have you ever had an animal drop on the spot, only to get up some time later and run off? I have and I know others that have. I doubt if this would be a thing if the CNS was damaged or it had lost blood pressure?

Only when I've had the bullet physically contact bone housing CNS squidgies. E.g. a bullet nicking a skull and not penetrating, or hitting the spinal processes high above the spine.

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

Oh and the 270 belongs in a museum

why is it on the threads that sooner or later someone comes out with a widiculous statement - long live the mighty 270 still serving us proudly

Cause it can take it on the chin and just keep on keeping on doing the job. The EBRG must be enjoying the respite now we leave her alone in favour of taking the piss out of 6.5 costsmore owners with their manbuns.

Originally Posted by gimp

Unfortunately I don't have a standardised experimental 170lb pig to also shoot with the .223 to see if the wound looks any different. Have you got one I can borrow?

This however is the last pig I shot - in May, with a 55gr Nosler Etip from .223, he was trotting across a face at about 150m, the shot was placed in the front shoulder through the shield, dropped him on the spot, and he rolled down the hill. I'm unsure on time-to-death as he ended up in some scrub. Laminated A4 paper for scale. I don't have autopsy data available unfortunately. It broke bone and penetrated through the lungs - you can see the bloody foam on his nose. I'll go find another.

Impact energy was about 700ftlb. Impact velocity about 2400fps. The E-tip is a good non-lead bullet, unfortunately it is lighter than I would select for personal use - the exterior ballistics aren't great.

Attachment 258502

I used the E tips a bit. Mostly on fallow and pigs. To be fair id probably take that shot too. Though I might go lower and aim for the heart and expect it too run a little.

If you are passing give me a yell. There are some big pigs here. we can try find one. Like all things though they are random guests that show when least expected.

Ill back you up with my old museum piece.

Im buggered if I can find the energy figures quoted by @BRADS for the 22CM

Anyone help me out?

Originally Posted by whanahuia

Im buggered if I can find the energy figures quoted by @BRADS for the 22CM

Anyone help me out?

I'm a fan of the 22 cal bit I don't think it's accurate.
I just don't value energy that much. It does however hold sufficient velocity to make the bullet work way further.