There has to be a better way than a random aerial bombardment of a poison over our country, nobody is looking for an alternative, there has to be a better way. Dave Ratcliffe successfully trapped Waipara for possums to stop the 1080 drops.
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There has to be a better way than a random aerial bombardment of a poison over our country, nobody is looking for an alternative, there has to be a better way. Dave Ratcliffe successfully trapped Waipara for possums to stop the 1080 drops.
You'd think with all the years people have been against 1080 they would have nutted up a better idea but being nut jobs on the internet seems to be there #1 choice so far ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Normal people think of problems to solutions. No point bitching here to us we're not changing things go complain to the people who need to hear it, have meetings come up with ideas on better methods, get decent publicity get more people to see things from your point of view ffs.
Ok well start Huis and trip NZ then? Toby I just get pissed with DOCs attutude to 1080. It certainly deserves an inquiry ,independent that is, in to what is going on, the blind dumping of this poison is just not on! Going into a Forrest as a tourist in NZ and being faced with a poison sign complete with a skull and cross bones is a bit of putting? We do this but won't have nuclear power? Fuck I know which ones safer!
Actually, the photographer of that sequence used a small fenced reserve area, set up the vine and the thrush nest. Yes THRUSH chicks. The whole deal is a setup. This has been proved to DoC.
Actually it is a similar scam to the greeny claims of native fuschia (Konini) being completely denuded of foliage by possums. Lots of photo's of this terrible assault on native bush were gleefully published.
However, the truth is that Konini is one of the few native trees in NZ that is deciduous, shedding it's leaves annually as a normal part of it's existence. Possums do like eating it, but the claims made by Forest and Bird that the denuding was caused by possum are incorrect and deliberately misleading. (Unless of course, their emotive bullshit simply overrode their ignorance of the facts.)
Similarly, there were claims made about devastation of Southern Rata, and kamahi being wrecked by possums. Southern Rata flowers intermittently with sometimes several years between flowerings, and damage to those trees and the Kamahi in the Ruahine was caused by snowstorms and wind storms.
We're lucky to have moaning old retired bastards like you @Woody keeping these guys "honest"! Keep up the good work!:thumbsup:
The possum eating a bird means nothing to me, its a side argument with little meaning to either way, its simply a distraction from bigger issues.
The "truth" about 1080 I'm sure is somewhere in the middle, like they say there's normally three sides to every story; your side, my side and the truth.
I don't make any living from 1080, it doesn't effect me either way. But my views on it remain the same, a necessary tool for the immediate future.
Kj
I am not a total ban 1080 advocate, I do think it has its place. But I also think it should not be used anywhere near as much as it is and virtually never total coverage from the air.
You only have to see the lies and propaganda for what it is to realize it has very little to do with conservation and everything to do with money.
That is correct but the propaganda will rule, have that proven and things may open up. Money and lots of it will always have it's plan B. No one in the 1080 industry will allow that to happen eh.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
I think it increases the importance of reducing possum numbers, I'm sure we can all agree on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimjon
How best to do it is the big debate. Maybe as it's such a massive problem, a work for benefit scheme could involve possum eradication as one of the tasks and try to create a bigger fur industry for skins, plucked fur and baiting
Sent from my workbench
Only problem with these schemes is that possum trapping is possibly one of the most demanding jobs there is if your doing it to get a performance result (<5%RTCI).Quote:
Originally Posted by smidey
Getting someone who struggles to motivate themselves to even get out of bed and try and find a normal (easy) job, to step up and do one of the toughest jobs there is almost never works. I know this first hand as I once ran a task force green team of possum trappers many years ago, with 32 people go through my program over a 5 year period, each of them had the option of staying with the team in full time employment and working for a living. Only ONE lasted the 5 years, all the others choose to leave even though they knew their benefits would be cancelled for leaving! None of those who left had another job to go to, they all left because they hated it so much they would rather plead poverty, than work hard.
In all honesty, I cringe when I hear work for DOL schemes mentioned as a solution for pest control, its a gross over simplification to a very complicated issue.
No offence is intended by my reply, its just that I already know the outcome through experience....the hard way.
Kj
I could take you all to a spot that has never seen aerial 1080, where you can easily shoot a couple hundred possums on a good night, has an unknown rat population, and the bird song is actually deafening. There are literally hundreds of native birds flying around in the bush. My point, possums don't eat fucking birds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Very rare area that JC, proves a point. Will it last though? I for one would hope so. Lots of money could pass hands there no doubt. F***ing with nature just doesn't hit home to the money spinners,sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
Been like that for as long as I've been alive mate, so can't see it changing. It gets trapped regularly by a couple of locals, provides them with full time jobs thru the winter and has done for 30 plus years.Quote:
Originally Posted by doinit
So photos and video aren't enough for you? You can't deny possums eat eggs and birds, the question is how manyQuote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
Sent from my workbench
The image you posted is from an image company. Not a photo company or the dept of conservation.
One may want to research it a bit more before blindly believing a image on the Internet ;)
Haha that's the first time I ever saw that image. Your splitting hairs to back up your bullshit idea. You do some research and then tell me they don't, the video from 1993 a fake to?Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Sent from my workbench
Those photos are so set up it is not funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by smidey
But in the same valley I could take you about 3 kms north, cross over the road into land administered by DoC, it's been aerial 1080's every 3-4 years for the last 15-20 years. The silence is deafening. It sure wasn't possums and rats eating birds that shut the place up.
Kimjon - you have brought out some good information about rats in this thread
We seem to be largely focused on possums and 1080 verses trapping - but we really should be asking what predators are doing the greatest damage to our birdlife - possums, rats, mustilids, cats, etc
I have read masses of information about 1080 and have changed from hating it to tolerating it until effective alternatives are found
I am retired and I have spent the last 12 months on a community service project - trying to create a safe environment where the birds can return to an 80 acre community reserve close to home
When I first went there to do native planting work - I couldn’t see or hear many birds so I figured something must be wrong - maybe possums or maybe rats - so I decided that would be my project and I got started on both of them
I found two other old fellas to help me - 68 and 84 and we are running trap and bait stations which we jointly visit two or three times each week
We are currently working on about 50 acres of tracked country with 50m gridlines for bait stations and traps
I think we have killed most of the possums (133 to date) but they will continue to infiltrate from the perimeters
But rats - they are a serious challenge - bait stations on approximately 50m gridlines - we started with Pestoff, then changed to Ditrac and after ten large buckets of that we figured we had them beat because the bait take slowed down - but they were still laying blue shit in our possum traps and stealing the possum bait - so they were happily living with Ditrac
Kiwi Hunter advised me to change to Contrac - they wolfed it like they were starving and after 5 large buckets and 60 new rat kill traps we seem to have slowed them down - but have we beaten them - I doubt it - they are still there and are being seen - but just getting more cunning - they will take bait out of the barrel of an A24 - right up to the trigger wire - then leave the rest and they are getting trap shy
Then there are the mice - take out most of the rats and the balance of power shifts - we then had a mouse plague - rats must consume large numbers of mice and I can tell you that mice live quite happily on Ditrac - blue mouse shit in all the possum traps - and of course rats eat dead rats - we are still seeing rat heads and parts of bodies in traps
So if rats can eat rats - see the pictures - what do you think the bastards can do with birds eggs or baby birds just out of the eggs - dead meat for rats
But the birds are definitely returning - Quail have had an amazing breeding season - the buggars are everywhere in flocks of 20 to 30 - the usual natives such as Tui and Fantail are now prolific along with the usual domestic birds - and we are starting to see a few Kereru - we just have to create a safe environment for the next breeding season in a few months
So what has changed - most of the possums, rats and hedgehogs have gone - which was the most destructive for birdlife? - I don’t know but I doubt there is any point in taking out one bird predator without the others - and then of course there are mustilids which are very elusive and simply refuse to enter our 15 box traps - and bloody cats from the numerous neighboring properties
So the end of the rant - maybe 1080 will clean up the reduced number of possums that now don’t seem to have TB and maybe it will clean up the rats along with some of our birds - God only knows because I don’t think anyone else has the total answer - and I am not sure that many hunters really care about bird predator control because I don’t see many reports of hunters actually doing it
Trapped rats in last few weeks - I can thoroughly recommend Snap E rat traps - fantastic and don’t break like some others we use :)
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/...IMG_0001_1.jpg
http://i1059.photobucket.com/albums/..._0001%2035.jpg
This Is my problem with 1080d bush, its silent and after 3-5 years or so as the bird life is just starting to come back(except the slow breeders) they do it again and kill what is left!Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
Bush that is not 1080d in my experience is alive with birds pests and all.
Great work @time out.Quote:
Originally Posted by time out
yes for sure, i'm not doubting that. What i am trying to get across is possums eat birds and eggs as well, we just don't know how many. I haven't researched 1080 so don't know if it is good or bad either way but something has to be done about the possum population.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
You're exactly right, possums do need to be controlled, because they damage our native bush, which is what I said in my first post. But not because they "eat birds" and "spread TB". That's DOC and AHB's excuses for needing to throw 1080 about. To control possums a variety of control methods need to be used, it's like killing any pest, one method alone rarely works.
Ok JC I thought you were referring to DOC ( public land ) not land that is not controlled by the DOC. I to know a few areas that I would say are special, birds aplenty, deer and other PESTS and these areas are not administered by DOC. There areas as we know are through out the country and as we know once again there are many fortunate hunters that either own or hunt these areas with permission.These hunters that do hunt these areas are happy with their hunting and (many ) have no idea what 1080 does,only what they hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
If all of these places were bombed as heavily as the DOC land (public land) they would soon come to understand the real, bigger picture I'm sure.
Real hands on experience with 1080 and what it really does only sits with a minority of out doors types.The majority rules,propaganda is a very powerfull tool when fed to the gullible.
Life however is far far to short to be getting uptight about what some see as being the only solution.Us older bods have been and seen,aint a lot different now to what it was then.
This picture is a good example of all is not what we think it is. It is a commercial Image produced by Nga Manu Images. It is for sale right now and has appeared in publications as a native birds nest, a thrushes nest and a song thrush's nest. So you it can see it can be whatever you want it to be. The word Image give a good clue. With half tame animals and the use of bait you can train possums and rats to do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by smidey
DOC has admitted to their embarrassment that the image is Doctored. You would also have to ask why, DOC with all their cameras set up recording nesting birds has been unable to film a clear shot of possums robbing nests. The contents of thousands of possum stomachs have been examined with nil or little evidence of nest predation.
WELL THERE YOU GO.
totally agree, the primary issue is fauna destruction but when you consider the harm on birds and the TB issue that just increases the importance of controlling them. they probably do more harm to birds by eating the fauna than eating them directly but that is probably very hard to measure accurately either way but it does happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC
of course it is doctored for marketing/advertising or what ever the task is, either staged with trained animals or photoshopped etc or both. to those that think this is a "wild caught" image, you had better not book a ticket with virgin airlines in the hope of finding a virgin wife or feed your large mrs special K to make her look like the woman in the ad :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graeme Sturgeon
the image depicts what is going on. There is other photo graphic/video evidence of it happening which i believe. the extent of it is debatable.
Presumably you mean the flora, which in nz is adapted to browsing animals like the Moa.Quote:
Originally Posted by smidey
Obviously out of control populations of things like possums/deer/pigs/cham/tahr will do damage but in this day and age with the value of fur/skins and the value of WARO and ease of accesibility with helicopters and jet boats and tracks better gear capable of shooting much longer ranges etc etc etc we will never again see mobs of hundreds of deer like in the 50s and 60s and totally eaten out bush understorys on public land.
yes sorry, flora
Bear in mind that DoC used those bullshit photo's knowing they were false until knowledgeable public pressure forced them to desist from deliberately misleading the public. Today, it remains a very good example of how they should not be trusted.
For that matter, most of the spin about trappers not being economically viable compared to 1080 poisoning, put out by DoC, the AHB and the PCE is also deliberate misleading of their taxpaying public.
I extracted under an OIA and Ombudsman's Act request, the full analysis of the cumulative averaged costs of the AHB 1080 operations as identified by government contracted independent auditors. The true cost was over $55 per hectare, whereas they have been misleading the public for many years claiming the costs were only in the $10 PER HA RANGE.
The truth is, that if possum trappers were paid this rate per ha, they would be making in the order of $600 per day gross, but even if a trapper only covered 10 ha per day for only half the year he would still gross over $100,000 per year. On top of that he would earn anther $15,000 if he was to take fur from just a single possum per ha. If he caught 5 per ha he would gross an extra $70.000 Potential gross per trapper about $170,000 per annum. On top of that there are the associated benefits of employment, ancillary industries such as the $140million per annum blended wool possum fibre industry and more employment. Of course, the bureaucrats would diminish as would the millionaires who currently suck the 1080 tit at the expense of the taxpayers.
And Smidey old chap, possums can actually be beneficial in moderate numbers in lowland forests as an agent for pollination.
When alternatives are sought, any businessman would first be seeking the REAL costs as a basis for analysis. This basic premise is one which the bureaucrats have studiously avoided revealing to the public and is the main reason trapping has been suppressed. Bloody good on fellows like Time out I say.
Sorry woody, your trapping figures are way out. There's no way you'd be able to continuously average 10ha per day in the back country (to <5% RTCI).
So lets not give it a go< just drop some more green rain?:D
Actually you can. Especially if your given the $55 per ha (2010 cost. More today) on top of the earnings from skins and carcasses kimjon. This is where the public are simply believing the naysayers within the pro 1080 poison interests instead of properly analysing and field proving. At the least, a possum trap line will draw possums from 100 metres either side. Therefore for each kilometre of distance covered by a line, 20 hectares are trapped. Even at retirement age most reasonably fit men can cover a 10 km round trip in a day. That's potentially 200ha per day. Assume 4 trips allowing prebaiting, the daily coverage properly trapped is 50 ha per day. Then deduct days for admin, servicing, wet weather, access etc. The 10 ha per day I used in a previous post is extremely conservative. I reckon if trapper were offered $55 per ha on top of their skins, fur and carcasses there would be a line over a mile long of applicants for the jobs. Good men could easily earn over $500 per day. The trouble is, the vested interests and bureaucrat will keep refusing and supressing the option of subsidising trapping to the equivalent TRUE cost of 1080 poisoning in order to save their plush unproductive arses and their million dollar 1080 contract incomes. This is not simply a problem relating to 1080; it is a problem of irresponsible central and local government operations across the board throughout NZ. There are countless examples occurring every month. Dunedin drains; Canterbury Council run by Commissioners; many councils massive interest debts; burgeoning rates increases--- the list goes on , and is getting worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimjon
10km round trip, with a trap every 25m equals (10,000m/25m x 0.75kg/trap = 300kg!), hope you've got a strong back pack?
Kj
You probably didn't know what to look for.
I have skinned and post mortemed 1000's of possums( privately and for MAF) from Taupo to Wellington and have come across TB in all areas as well as TB in pigs(50% infection rate) in Wgtn and TB in deer out of National Park.
1080 is still our best option BUT over the years it has been the arrogant we know best attitude of the people(DOC and AHB) using it who have stuffed up.
Firearms are safe until some idiot gets hold of one, we shouldn't ban firearms because of a few idiots, but the way the media( a few members of it) portray it all firearm owners are potential mass murderers.
Its the same with 1080 and cyanide it's safe in the right hands and used sensibly.
What (1080) toxicity are those baits?
0.15%ww. The analysis applies in this example to the intended drop in the Auckland water supply catchment in the Hunua's. As proposed, it is doomed to fail.
They claim to be targeting rats, possums and mustelids, but the bait loadings are to target deer, which they have stated as "preventative incursions".
Incidentally kimjon, when I had to carry out many heavy objects, whether traps or animals I (and All others I know) carry by stages and by leapfrogging the loads. Traps don't weigh 3/4 kg anyway, and seldom ever placed at 25 m intervals, usually much greater intervals of in groups. Cyanide is very light.
It is illegal to target deer with 1080 as it is too cruel a death, hence why when they target deer they say they are targeting smaller pests.
