Telling if a hind has a fawn.

It's always a dilemma, eh. Deciding if a hind has a fawn and whether to shoot or not.

My approach is to er on the side of caution through to April or so. Although I have been known to shoot the fawn first, and then the hind - but that was when they had a price on their head.

I watched this one for quite a while:

She was out at 5pm which sort of said she had fawned and was hungry
She was on her own, another sign she might have a fawn
Her hips were a bit pronounced and slightly hollow gutted like she had fawned
I couldn't spot an udder
Her head and stature made her look like she wasn't very old - but over 3? if under 3 she probably didn't have a fawn.
She didnt look back to the bush like they do when they have planted a fawn
She didnt stay out very long, maybe an hour, then she went back into the bush and disappeared. Back to a fawn?

The young bloke with me was busting to shoot her but I made him hold off. I was pleased when she disappeared back into the trees. He got a spiker later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF1hOK05snA

What do others think? How do you make the decision?

the last couple years, I just shoot the fawn then the hind- or shoot the hind first. If there's a fawn that I don't see, then it doesn't get a bullet< all because of high-higher than ever numbers in most places.

I only started hunting a few years ago and I'm still learning and trying to get more successful on public land so if i saw a hind I'd take her, unless she had an obvious fawn in tow.

I generally avoid hunting the December January period when the Fawns are very young and spend most of their time in hidden If I do hunt it tends to be spikers only. I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are on when a fawn can look after itself if the mother disappears, My thoughts are the fawn will survive from say the beginning of March on. They will still be suckling if they can but are also eating grass.

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Originally Posted by zeropak

I generally avoid hunting the December January period when the Fawns are very young and spend most of their time in hidden If I do hunt it tends to be spikers only. I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are on when a fawn can look after itself if the mother disappears, My thoughts are the fawn will survive from say the beginning of March on. They will still be suckling if they can but are also eating grass.

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Yeah.March/April

@Tahr I always remember when I shot that hind up on the Rangi tops. Tony told me to shoot the fawn that was with her. There was a yearling hanging around too. Now I can’t even remember if I shot it or whether Tony did. I suspect he shot both the yearling and fawn. I also remember that you both explained that fawns don’t do very well if left to their own devices at that age. That was early March from memory.

Of note my brother and I shot a fawn (stag) on the 27th of December in the Ruahines in a river bed. We had this very conversation. On inspection of the gut bag it was very full of grass (or similar). At the time I thought it was a lighter looking green than usual and I presume that would be due to milk from mum.

I don't shoot hinds until mid Feb and won't let anyone I have with me either.
If its a yearling maybe.
And Sika and Fallow I'd be very cautious about shooting one at all in February as their fawning is usually a month or so later than reds.
Shooting a hind and leaving a fawn to starve is an animal welfare issue.
If I were to put a fawn (or any animal) in a pen and starve it to death I would be convicted.
No difference.

Interesting. From the people I've spoken to – and that's only the people that I know who hunt a lot – they have no problem shooting a fawn. Reason is mainly due to pest control. They would prefer to do that than leave a fawn if they shot the mother. I'm not judging either way just conversations that I've had. I'm not sure what I would do if I was in that position but I guess I'll find out.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

I don't shoot hinds until mid Feb and won't let anyone I have with me either.
If its a yearling maybe.
And Sika and Fallow I'd be very cautious about shooting one at all in February as their fawning is usually a month or so later than reds.
Shooting a hind and leaving a fawn to starve is an animal welfare issue.
If I were to put a fawn (or any animal) in a pen and starve it to death I would be convicted.
No difference.

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Give it a feed of 1080 and blame DoC!!

From a physiological point of view any mixed age hind in reasonable condition is very likely to have a fawn. I don’t have any real knowledge on wild deer, but in farmed deer mixed age hind conception rates should be 95% plus unless you’ve had a shocker of some kind and survival rates in scrubby country should be 93-96%. That’s for a red hind mated to a red stag. So roughly there’s a 90% chance a hind that’s between about 3 and 9 years of age will have a fawn at foot from mid December onwards. Prior to about 90 days of age fawn survival after weaning is not that great and it’s safe to say any fluffy, potbelly yearlings you say later on are early weaned fawns. Yearling hinds (R2’s) are very much able to get in fawn and raise a fawn though body weight and condition at the rut is a determining factor as to wether they go through puberty and are able to get pregnant. I would guess conception rates in yearling’s in the bush would be much lower and their ability to raise a fawn would also be much lower. Maybe 30-40%? After about 10 years of age hind fertility starts dropping off, the older the quicker. I would guess older hinds in the wild would have reproduce at similar rates to farm deer with fawning more spread out, probably later starting and much later finishing. So mixed age hinds in the bush are probably going to have a fawn on them throughout the summer and autumn period. How can you tell for sure? If you can see an udder is the only sure way. In saying that they are difficult to see, deer udders are very small unless they are very well fed, though if you can see between the back legs they will either have a little bag or absolutely nothing at all. Like tahr said if they are by themselves there’s probably one hidden and if you think you will be able to see one forget it. They’re bloody hard to see in a flat paddock with grass 6 inches long, they are the masters of hiding.

If the freezer was low,I'd shoot the fawn first,then hind if possible.But I do like to watch them as well.My freezer is pretty fall so fawns and mums are pretty safe from me for the next couple of months.

Would rather shoot them when pregnant , got know issue with that . Let them walk once junior is out.

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Fawns taste great. I don't usually bush hunt over summer. The fawn,velvet issue plus it avoids wasps worst season.

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Originally Posted by zeropak

I generally avoid hunting the December January period when the Fawns are very young and spend most of their time in hidden If I do hunt it tends to be spikers only. I'd like to know what peoples thoughts are on when a fawn can look after itself if the mother disappears, My thoughts are the fawn will survive from say the beginning of March on. They will still be suckling if they can but are also eating grass.

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Taken from their mothers milk too early they turn out runts the size of large hares. Pitiful to see.

Its something I struggle with too. Some people don't seem to give a sh*t.

Here's vid from a week back.

https://youtu.be/dNrhQkECm6c?si=9MqMPWguMi3VhsdV
This one I let my daughter shoot. I watched it for 25mins or so on all angles through the scope and binocs. She was carrying a very large gut and was old. As most old sika aren't dropping anything the odds are low for a fawn. Possibly pregnant though so I had to have a quiet discussion about shooting pregnant hinds and ethics to my daughter. It's not something I like do even though I've shot a few over the years.
In the end I let my daughter take the shot for her first deer and she was barren.
https://youtube.com/shorts/ZHsyIJ6fs...1d498ur8HY62GA

This one left along with some others. Better age likelyhood and no ability to really study it as it was feeding along side on.
I've watched sika hinds with fans and depending on angle you can see the udder at points.
Personally Ive shot plenty of deerI don't feel a need to kill all the time. I never regret it so don't get the fomo thing anymore.

On the second to last night a fawn was on a clearing we watched and was wandering and calling for mum. Heart breaking sound and hard on my missus and kid. I think any reasonable person should feel empathy in these moments however some don't experience to so have the mindset of 'can't see it, who cares'.
You can see yourself at ease with the old'poison wolill get it anyway'. Or like this area a chopper just bombed up a heap and that was fine. It doesn't change to actually ethical dilemma however.

There is also the point that for some, that one animal and hunting moment, may be very special. One might set aside ethical constraints for this. An example would be shooting at a range longer that one is used to. I see people letting kids shoot beyond 100yds. My girl can do it but why add risk of injury. I think any nerves could affect the shot. Ethics are also chance to restrict you and your kids shooting. A time to enjoy the moment. Sometimes I think we need a reason not to shoot and from that we can have more memorable moments.
I took a small risk for that hinds potential fawn so that my kid could shoot her first sika. I want her to have future targets, such and fist male deer, first red, first stag, first stag in the bush /roar. I need an old hind or a yearling. I was willing to take a small risk and that is slightly questionable.

He's her first sika, third deer this year.
Attachment 266756

From cam speedy last conference:
leave the spikers and shoot the hinds.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

From cam speedy last conference:
leave the spikers and shoot the hinds.

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I think thar is talking about the ethics of leaving fawns to starve rather than spiker v hinds.

If you ever need a some ethical answer around this subject ask your wife or girlfriend. Should I shoot the mum deer and let it's baby likely die, or should we watch it do it's thing and risk missing out and some veni.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

From cam speedy last conference:
leave the spikers and shoot the hinds.

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At the right time of year.
I'd be very surprised if Cam was suggesting shooting hinds with young fawns.

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

At the right time of year.
I'd be very surprised if Cam was suggesting shooting hinds with young fawns.

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by Tahr

What do others think? How do you make the decision?

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Was out a few days ago, decision to not shoot hinds or does was made before I even left the house. Saw both during the day and no dilemma for me, wrong to do it. For eating, so spiker only, managed one of those. Question for those that do - would you shoot a bitch and leave her pups to starve?

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

Fawns taste great. I don't usually bush hunt over summer. The fawn,velvet issue plus it avoids wasps worst season.

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I call it fawnison and it tastes just great.

Given the choice between a hind, fawn and spiker. I will always take the spiker in velvet.

Deer numbers are high and I often shoot a hind and it's fawn.
But I will only ever shoot one mature animal at a time now despite the high numbers.

Shoot them one at a time and go hunting a lot more often

Cam Speedy was not suggesting shooting hinds with fawns. It was a general statement in regards to game management and hunters wanting trophy stags.

Anyway during Dec- Feb, expect any hinds to have a fawn in tow. Fawns won't be waving flags saying "don't shoot mum, I'm over here". If glassing open tussock country, usually spot a fawn. In bush or river flats - good luck as they are usually tucked away a bit more.

No farmer would leave dependent calf's to starve deliberately or take a ewe away from a suckling lamb and let them either die from starvation or grow up runty and sickly.
Same as homeowners with dogs and puppies etc.
As a hunter I'm no different.

Some people see deer as pests and so be it, but my circle see them as a valuable resource and we leave all species of hinds from start of December through to end of March.
As hunters we aren't that desperate for meat we have to shoot a hind during this period.
We simply carry on hunting for the next opportunity. If none present, still a great day out and wait till the next hunt.

Outside of those months then Hinds are most definitely targeted.
We aren't even trophy hunters, just simple meat hunters, but we'll also leave any good velvet stags walk. There's always another deer around the corner so to speak.

Peoples own morals and conscience will dictate how they act.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

What do others think? How do you make the decision?

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If you shoot a hind in the first few months, you basically have shot two deer. The fawn won‘t survive. If you shoot a hind before her fawn hasn‘t reached the first year, as a matter of fact it won’t thrive. That fawn needs the guidance of mum.

I‘m not talking about ethics, everybody to his/her own!

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Originally Posted by Andrew46826

@Tahr I always remember when I shot that hind up on the Rangi tops. Tony told me to shoot the fawn that was with her. There was a yearling hanging around too. Now I can’t even remember if I shot it or whether Tony did. I suspect he shot both the yearling and fawn. I also remember that you both explained that fawns don’t do very well if left to their own devices at that age. That was early March from memory.

Of note my brother and I shot a fawn (stag) on the 27th of December in the Ruahines in a river bed. We had this very conversation. On inspection of the gut bag it was very full of grass (or similar). At the time I thought it was a lighter looking green than usual and I presume that would be due to milk from mum.

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Was that the same trip We met you up there?
if so either
Tony shot the hind You shot the other two Or he shot two, you shot one and finished off one of his.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

It's always a dilemma, eh. Deciding if a hind has a fawn and whether to shoot or not.

My approach is to er on the side of caution through to April or so. Although I have been known to shoot the fawn first, and then the hind - but that was when they had a price on their head.

I watched this one for quite a while:

She was out at 5pm which sort of said she had fawned and was hungry
She was on her own, another sign she might have a fawn
Her hips were a bit pronounced and slightly hollow gutted like she had fawned
I couldn't spot an udder
Her head and stature made her look like she wasn't very old - but over 3? if under 3 she probably didn't have a fawn.
She didnt look back to the bush like they do when they have planted a fawn
She didnt stay out very long, maybe an hour, then she went back into the bush and disappeared. Back to a fawn?

The young bloke with me was busting to shoot her but I made him hold off. I was pleased when she disappeared back into the trees. He got a spiker later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF1hOK05snA

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It's bloody tough to tell. From that vid I couldn't be sure, but suspect your summation is correct.

Right now If Im going to shoot something, it will be a stag, or yearling. If I was hunting where there were high numbers I would shoot a hind and fawn if they were together. Once the girls are back in group with fawns at foot Ill take the one in the group without a fawn, usually a 2 year old.

The number of November-December 1080 drops, not everyone is concerned with motherless fawns.

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Originally Posted by tetawa

The number of November-December 1080 drops, not everyone is concerned with motherless fawns.

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Well I wont be using Govt departments as any sort of moral compass.
This is easy for me, I grew up hunting with my Mum and Dad. Not shooting hinds from November through March is just natural. There's no struggling with decisions to shoot or not , never any regrets over shots taken, I find everything is more relaxed and enjoyable. Im sure if I orphaned a fawn my Mun would haunt every haunt I went on :D
Till late october hinds are the target
Attachment 266802

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Originally Posted by 9STAGS

No farmer would leave dependent calf's to starve deliberately or take a ewe away from a suckling lamb and let them either die from starvation or grow up runty and sickly.
Same as homeowners with dogs and puppies etc.
As a hunter I'm no different.

Some people see deer as pests and so be it, but my circle see them as a valuable resource and we leave all species of hinds from start of December through to end of March.
As hunters we aren't that desperate for meat we have to shoot a hind during this period.
We simply carry on hunting for the next opportunity. If none present, still a great day out and wait till the next hunt.

Outside of those months then Hinds are most definitely targeted.
We aren't even trophy hunters, just simple meat hunters, but we'll also leave any good velvet stags walk. There's always another deer around the corner so to speak.

Peoples own morals and conscience will dictate how they act.

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Good post.Deer are nice animals I think they are similar to dogs as in they have a bit of conscience within them and make great pets(hinds)my friend had a hind as a pet that just died recently he had it for 22 years, it just roamed around in a standard paddock and loved being with him and other animals.thats the reason I dont actually like killing them but then there's the pest issue which is real and when they are turning up in mobs to peel out a crop everything is in the firing arc.The pest issue Trumps everything in certain areas which indirect inhumane practices are part of the deal trying to deal with them unfortunately.For those that have the capacity and chance to have a pet deer give it a go they're great.

Some hunters have a moral compass while others don't.

I think once you have a family of your own, the heart strings come into play. I remember shooting a pregnant hind in March from the Kaimais and left me with a sickening feeling in my guts, especially because I had a newborn at home.

The hind you filmed @Thar I would most likely say she had a fawn going by her feeding behaviour (constant feeding) and time of day.

Each to their own if you decide to shoot them with fawn.

Spent day in the bush today... Didn't see or hear anything at all and fookin sewing machine arsed Germanic mongrel bastard winged mafia hit my daughter rather badly...yip I rather dislike hunting in summer.

If it makes you feel any better Micky, I zapped three nests tonight.
I feel a lot better for it.

I collected a few more opinions on the subject of weight gain of fawns without guidance from some knowledgable guys over here. The overall opinion and experience is, that such fawns not even gain half the weight in comparison.