Thread: Thermal gear. Should we have it?

OK so I know I am probably opening myself up to plenty of angry responses here. I also know that some of those responses will be along the lines of 'we all have the right to decide how we hunt' etc etc etc. Yawn. I am also ready for the 'back when scopes came out everyone probably said the same thing too' conversation. So lets just for the moment take those ones out of the equation and have a rational chat. To be frank having thermal gear in the hands of all and sundry concerns me. I know that there are a million deer out there in private open country so my question is why do we need thermal gear? I also know the same conversation could be had with spotlighting, but thermal gear is a whole jump up. As a pest control tool it is unparalleled and I have no issue with it's use there. Aside from the wide use by poachers I think there is another subtle risk from it. I think it is just another big nail in the coffin of the very reason why we all hunt. And I say hunt, not shoot folks. I worry that it is creating a culture where people just write a cheque and go shoot deer and more deer more easily. There is very little sport in thermal use that is for sure. I think we are in serious danger of totally and absolutely treating our deer like targets, more than the amazing animals that they are. There has already been an element of that creeping in with some (not all by a long stretch) long range shooting as well. C'mon lets be honest here. I know there are personal variations, but like no other tech ever invented I think thermal gear is potentially an issue. Not only that but when do the deer get a break? At what point do people actually want to do some mahi and work HARDER to be successful, not cut corners? The other thing with thermal is that is if we knew how much it is getting used at night in public land I think we would all get a big fright. No doubt everyone has heard the accounts of open country being hammered by thermal hunters. Like Tussock hut for example. And is it fair to use it in the day time instead of actually having to spot the animal yourself instead of scanning first for a heat signature. At some point I think technology may take us over a line where the very reason we hunt has been watered down to the point it stops being that one basic thing we can count on to take us out of a mad world for a while. and I worry that we are getting awfully close to it. What do people think? Should we be the bigger people and make a call to ditch it and lobby to take it out of the shops? I am not lying awake at night worrying about this but some times it doesn't hurt to ask questions instead of blindly plunging on. We certainly don't need it for recreational hunting and unlike pretty much all other tech it seems to cross a big fat line in ethics. I would appreciate your thoughts.

Have you actually hunted with thermal gear to form an opinion on this

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I think that alot of it stems from the fear that hunters using thermal gear will severely deplete the animal numbers in ones hunting area. Otherwise why would they care?

Not saying you are one @Hiawatha

The way things are going i dont think thermal will be any good on a spear or rock

Thermal is just a progression, it has its good & bad points, it isn't a magic bullet, it certainly is helpful...less so in summer.

Think sounders on boats, except they are a bigger advantage....

by same token...take gps tracking collars off dogs.....learn to run to the bark,and keep running till bail is concluded....
go back to map n compass.....no gps system with built in mapping programme.....learn to navigate
put a couple of long range capable hunters on big riverbed catchments with thermals to find mobs and what the choppers do now would look tame by comparison.
and the biggest issue...how would you propose to police it?????
then there is rangefinder scopes like burris eliminator...is that tech too much???
we arent going back to open sighted .303 SMLEs and fmj ammo with tip filed off anytime soon,so what is out there is out there. its illegal to discharge a firearm on DOC administered land during hours of darkness now.....doesnt stop it happening. again where will the line be drawn and how do you propose to police it???

Agree with Micky Duck.

Spotlighting on DOC land is supposed to be illegal. But spend any amount of time in the bush and you will see a lot of people do it anyway.

At least with thermal guys are looking for particular shapes, rather than just a quick flash of eyes. So there may well be a point to be made that thermal will increase safety...

Originally Posted by ebf

Agree with Micky Duck.

Spotlighting on DOC land is supposed to be illegal. But spend any amount of time in the bush and you will see a lot of people do it anyway.

At least with thermal guys are looking for particular shapes, rather than just a quick flash of eyes. So there may well be a point to be made that thermal will increase safety...

Having used one i do get your point but having been on the shit end of people shooting with a thermal while i was walking into a hut in the dark i was genuinely scared for my life. The sort of people that poach are not the most careful. And its not far to think they would shoot at a shape if they would shoot at eyes. Also interestingly enough human eyes dont reflect. So i would prefer spot lighters as they give a warning the are coming.

Also have seen them used on the tops after dark and reported hunters to police and as far as I know nothing eventuated. The hunters flew in by chopper right next to where i had hiked to and set up camp and first night they proceeded to shoot a young 10 point and only take its head. I heard the shot at near midnight and the next morning i walked past there camp and they couldn't tell me how good the thermal was. I hiked further in and came back out to a tonne of backcountry wrappers shoved in a hole and a heap of beer bottles left in the tarn. I packed all of these out as i hadn't found a mature stag so pack was empty enough. Called up the chopper company and they reluctantly passed on party details and let me know they wouldn't fly them in again (due to rubbish mainly).

Anyway after the pointless waffling I think they have a place and are progression but the do also provide a means to do the wrong and dangerous things easier than other options.

Originally Posted by Hiawatha

OK so I know I am probably opening myself up to plenty of angry responses here. I also know that some of those responses will be along the lines of 'we all have the right to decide how we hunt' etc etc etc. Yawn. I am also ready for the 'back when scopes came out everyone probably said the same thing too' conversation. So lets just for the moment take those ones out of the equation and have a rational chat. To be frank having thermal gear in the hands of all and sundry concerns me. I know that there are a million deer out there in private open country so my question is why do we need thermal gear? I also know the same conversation could be had with spotlighting, but thermal gear is a whole jump up. As a pest control tool it is unparalleled and I have no issue with it's use there. Aside from the wide use by poachers I think there is another subtle risk from it. I think it is just another big nail in the coffin of the very reason why we all hunt. And I say hunt, not shoot folks. I worry that it is creating a culture where people just write a cheque and go shoot deer and more deer more easily. There is very little sport in thermal use that is for sure. I think we are in serious danger of totally and absolutely treating our deer like targets, more than the amazing animals that they are. There has already been an element of that creeping in with some (not all by a long stretch) long range shooting as well. C'mon lets be honest here. I know there are personal variations, but like no other tech ever invented I think thermal gear is potentially an issue. Not only that but when do the deer get a break? At what point do people actually want to do some mahi and work HARDER to be successful, not cut corners? The other thing with thermal is that is if we knew how much it is getting used at night in public land I think we would all get a big fright. No doubt everyone has heard the accounts of open country being hammered by thermal hunters. Like Tussock hut for example. And is it fair to use it in the day time instead of actually having to spot the animal yourself instead of scanning first for a heat signature. At some point I think technology may take us over a line where the very reason we hunt has been watered down to the point it stops being that one basic thing we can count on to take us out of a mad world for a while. and I worry that we are getting awfully close to it. What do people think? Should we be the bigger people and make a call to ditch it and lobby to take it out of the shops? I am not lying awake at night worrying about this but some times it doesn't hurt to ask questions instead of blindly plunging on. We certainly don't need it for recreational hunting and unlike pretty much all other tech it seems to cross a big fat line in ethics. I would appreciate your thoughts.

What's your beef?
Given your recent joining date & low post count; I'd be more concerned that you are a troll looking for another division within a hunting & shooting community....
Nothing personal, but if it's not keeping you awake at night, why not focus on bigger issues - like ensuring we don't all end up with fond memories of hunting with rifles: lobby for something that matters....

Couldn't be bothered reading that. Should we have it you ask....
Well like it or not we do have it, buy one, dont buy one, up to you.

I intend to buy thermal kit at some stage, as a substitute for a mutt. It's cheaper to run than a dog, it doesn't bark, chew stuff, or crap on the lawn.

I also like the notion that I could use it for other stuff like looking for a hot spot that might flare up into a fire, and also to search for a missing person.

Originally Posted by Max Headroom

I intend to buy thermal kit at some stage, as a substitute for a mutt. It's cheaper to run than a dog, it doesn't bark, chew stuff, or crap on the lawn.

I also like the notion that I could use it for other stuff like looking for a hot spot that might flare up into a fire, and also to search for a missing person.

Yea they handy alright, I used mine a few weeks ago to find the beams inside walls to mount the new tele , awesome for springer checks during calving, have plenty of uses aside from a hunting tool

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Personally I believe they should be only allowed for use on private land, the same rules as spotlighting basically. While hunting in a favourite spot a few weeks back we had pick up a few animals by mid morning but nothing that we wanted to shoot when a guy turned up. not letting on about what we had seen (an still could) he unexpectedly pulled out a thermal an proceeded to go over the country we were looking at. Luckily it must have been to sunny or something as he never picked them up an eventually he went on his way. Now if he had been a young person or someone looking for their first deer or hadn't much experience that wasn't using a thermal then I would have happily pointed one out for them to try for after having a chat to them. but the way it happen it just never sat will with me an I cant say I felt guilty we he eventually bugged off to look elsewhere.

Pretty sure the doc permits say it’s a no no as well as the after sunset etc

Technology has been a human thing for a very long time - including spears - we aren’t exactly the mean machines of the world otherwise
Even in recent times - day optics have made shooting several hundred metres a normal thing - normally the animal is unaware as well - same as at night really

Its no no on Public Land after dark if its on a gun with a mag in it. If you just have a thermal in the hand then it can be used. Thats my understanding. Does seem like a bit of a grey area though.

New Department of Conservation permit conditions - artificial light, night vision, and thermal imaging.

The Department of Conservation have recently added, torches, night vision and thermal imagers to the restrictions on a recreational hunting permit:

The following activities are strictly prohibited under this Permit during the hours of darkness (½ hour after sunset to ½ hour before sunrise):

• discharging a firearm
• use of spotlights, torches, vehicle headlights, or any other artificial light source
• use of night vision equipment, infra red and heat detecting devices.


We have checked with the Department of Conservation, who have assured us that the restriction of the above items are whilst used for the purpose of hunting at night.

If you are using a thermal imager to stealthily reach your hunting position before first light, or for locating a downed animal after dusk (shot no later than 1/2hr after sunset), make sure that you remove the magazine from your rifle, and empty the chamber. These are common safety practices, and should be observed anyway.

Read the following letter for an official clarification.

4 November 2015

Anthony,

Thank you for your e mail regarding the Department's hunting permit condition as it applies to hunting at night.
Apologies for delay in replying I have been out of the office for a few days.

Comments as follows:
· Hunting permits have conditions that govern the activity of hunting and are not intended to restrict or govern other activities.
· The above is reinforced by the following statement on the hunting permit "There are permit conditions that you must adhere to when hunting".
· Therefore Condition 4 (referred to in your e mail) applies restrictions that apply when undertaking the activity of hunting.
· Condition 4 sets out to prevent shooting at night as it is considered an unsafe activity. (Limited visibility both peripheral and in the backdrop.)

When considering if an offence has been committed, as it relates to hunting, the following applies.
· Opportunity: There are animals present in the area and hence a reason for hunting exists.
· Means: A person is in possession of a weapon capable of killing an animal.
· Intent: A person is in an area is in possession of a weapon, is actively "stalking" and the weapon is in a condition such that it can be discharged if an animal is encountered. (Bolt in the breech, magazine loaded).

Hence if as you mention you have your rifle slung over your shoulder with an empty chamber and magazine this would be sufficient to show lack of intent (to be actively hunting) and would not be an issue.

Hope the above clarifies the situation.

All the best,

Regards Ian.

Ian Cooksley
National Hunting Advisor
Department of Conservation - Te Papa Atawhai
DDI: +06 350 9709


Te Papaioea / Palmerston North Office
Private Bag 11010, Manawatu Mail Centre, Palmerston North 4442
28 North Street, Palmerston North, 4410
T: 06 350 9700