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Yes, seen several examples like that. I've also seen a few examples where DOC open hunting areas cross grazed pasture. Some of these ARE DOC land where grazing rights have been given within DOC open hunting areas. When I enquired, I was told a condition of these leases is that pubic activities including hunting is still permitted and may not be blocked.Quote:
Originally Posted by berg243
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And thats exactly what happened to get access over Poronui to the forest park.
While realistically a farm owner or manager can refuse access for whatever reason they choose, actually pulling the "because of Health and Safety" card is not a valid excuse to refuse access for recreational activities. There is no obligation for the land owner or manager to warn recreational users of everyday hazards one would likely come across on a visit to a working farm.
There is an obligation to inform of any out of the norm hazards, and what they might be...such as tree felling operations/logging, significant stock movements, pest control and such. Normal hazards found on a farm and natural hazards...while I'd recommend they give you a rough outline, they don't actually need to worry about warning you about them.
Warning doesn't need to be in writing, verbal is fine. And the owner/manager does not need to tell every single member of a group about specific hazards, one person such as the leader is enough, then its up to them to pass that on. To refuse access to a property based on "H&S obligations" and their so called impeding nature on the operation of a farm is basically a cop out. There are no extra obligations with the new Act over the old one, and if a person injures themselves while on the property while there on recreation the owner/manager will not be held responsible.
I control access to several thousand hectares, with public access easements running through the middle of them. I request that anyone wishing to go off those easements contact me for an access permit. It is supplied with an access procedure, which is basically a two page information sheet with hazards current/non current, specific and/or out of the ordinary. While not actually required, it is very simple to do and not a burden at all.
So refusing you access because of health and safety reasons is bollocks.
And in this case where there is a paper road, he doesn't own that land, it is public land and the public have every right to use it. Unless he has purchased that land off the local council he cannot legally refuse access to it. He can't put a locked gate on it, he can't put stock on it, sheds or buildings on it, trees on it, which would restrict access either...without special permission from council.
BUT, a paper road drawn on a map and where it actually legally is can be a significant trip up point, as often tracks or roads formed on a farm "on a paper road" actually aren't in the proper place. So that's where you have to be careful. Potentially stepping off the legal paper road and onto private land could land you a trespass notice. Walking on a paper road, to access public land, with an unloaded firearm is not an illegal activity. Essentially it is no different to me walking down a county road with a rifle, perfectly legal.
In the cases of land I manage, the public easements aren't actually on the legal access ways...when DoC workers came and put the markers on the tracks, they followed existing tracks instead of the legal access up the rivers. In some places the legal access points are hundreds of metres from the actual ones people use. Now I could be a prick about it and lock those deviations up and make people walk. But it helps nothing and nobody, and really, it doesn't really cause any harm (apart from recreational users wrecking our tracks and roads, and DoC refusing to help with costs when we need to fix them up so it just costs us a few grand every couple years...:yuush:)
My advice would be to talk to the guy face to face and come to some sort of agreement. Make it clear why you want to use the paper road. Offer to give him hand on the farm if need be, anything to sweeten the deal for him. You don't really want to continue accessing land through there if someone is potentially going to be hostile towards you. Not worth the hassle in my opinion.
What Josh C has written is very wise and sensible and it is a shame that not every one thinks like him. I have faced some access problems in the past and so assuming the land owner is not as sensible and pragmatic as Josh I would still go to the local Council and get a copy of the road title to take with you to your meeting. It is only the Council that has the legal right to remove locks order fences taken down etc Nothing like having the threat of Council intervention and your draft application to publicly open the road as a point of negotiation. Some Cocky's have told people I know that if they use the road then they will find their vehicle burnt out when they come back to it. Another Cocky used to swap the wheels off hunters landrovers onto his own if they had better tyres. So don't assume they will all be fair and sensible. DOC has no jurisdiction over any types of roads so no point cap in handing to them.
I did have some further thoughts on this, perhaps if you have already approached the landowner and he is going to be a prick about access which is the reason for this thread after all, then acting through the Council - that is putting some distance between yourself and the prick (via the Council) may avoid any spleen venting and confrontation. Ask the council ( in writing) how many signatories they require on an application to them to have the road opened. Then when they speak to Mr prick he will know that this is serious and best he doesn't push it to hard. Better to give you access and stop it escalating. As it stands you have nothing to negotiate with.
I agree with almost all of this......and with respect would draw the following distinctions....Quote:
Originally Posted by Chop3r
1. Your description of the health and safety landscape is as I understand it, and is an accurate synopsis.
2. There is public land (e.g. paper roads) and private land. They are different. If the formed alignment of a road is off the legal alignment (the paper road) then its private land, and that’s that.
3. If the easements you refer to allow unrestricted public access, and if those using them comply with the terms of them then they don’t need a permit from you to use them. If the route they use deviate off the easement, then point 2. above applies.
4. You don’t need to step off the paper road and onto private land to be issued with a Trespass Notice. AFAIK you can be issued with one simply if the occupier has reasonable cause to expect that you are likely to trespass. So o doubt an occupier could argue that just being there provides reasonable cause….?
Not all DOC land under grazing leases is the same, for some of it hunting and access is not permitted (unless you have permission from the farmer leasing it Of course).Quote:
Originally Posted by stretch
Not exactly - IIRC a formed road maintained by a council gets a sort of defacto legal road status from public use even if its not in a legal road corridor, and councils fight it pretty hard if people try to block off a publicly used road even if its out of position. Basically they can force the landowner to leave the formed road free and clear until they go through a process to legalise it formally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx
But you won't be breaching the trespass order unless you leave the legal road will you? ;) Don't think they can trespass you from public land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxx
Nothing to stop farmer putting a plough through it if its not where it's supposed to be though...Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
Gee Ryan thought you were from Port Waikato, turns out you are from ParihakaQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
The council might disagree about that, it would be an interesting one for someone to try. You'd want to be pretty sure of it first, the council might want to find out what the courts think too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
That would likely be wilful damage. As you know stock that wanders off a farm, but is identifiable is not, free for the taking either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
Correct. The conditions are specific to the lease. My comment wasn’t clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cigar
Something I made about 3 years ago, then got sidetracked. Gotta figure out how I did it.
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