Thread: Warning Distressing and Disturbing Photographs- 1080 Poison

Woody, is it $60 per ha per year ?

So then a 200ha trapper would stand to make $12 K per year ?

What are the setup costs for traps, and how often do they need to be replaced ?

Does the $60 figure for 1080 include monitoring ? Who would do this in the trapping alternative ?

How would you incentivise trappers to go into hard country as opposed to easy stuff close to town ? And how do you incentivise them when trapping starts to have a effect on the numbers that they are catching ?

Someone is making a shit-load of money out of this (Tull-Industries) The locals there (USA) are spewing over its manufacture, so close to housing. The rules around it are close to their Nuclear Industry. Many (read most ) US citizens, Dont know about our opposition to it. It's considered so dangerous, it was on the Banned Terrorist Subtances List, then got removed with no explanation. No country or facility (including Tull), is allowed to hold in one place, the amount the facilities here do, when it is pelletised -so WTF IS going on. Historically, outside of Us and OZ, its mainly been intended for humans; briefly in Iraq,seized by US and apparently never deployed, and Nazi Germany, where its use for killing people was discontinued because it was too dangerous.(they didnt invent it..they discovered it; German Military Chemists, WW2) This is seriously not the sort of shit we should "sprinkling' from the air! I think Tull should be forced to "Open-its-books", to see Who, is being paid-off. After thinking about this for years, its the only thing that makes sense given the amount of opposition within DOC itself.

So one trapper in theory could manage 2 sq km, meaning a drop like the Hunuas would need around 170 trappers plus equipment.
Last time there was a fur industry the trappers farmed it so as to have a steady income, how would it be different now.

Originally Posted by rewa

Someone is making a shit-load of money out of this (Tull-Industries) The locals there (USA) are spewing over its manufacture, so close to housing. The rules around it are close to their Nuclear Industry. Many (read most ) US citizens, Dont know about our opposition to it. It's considered so dangerous, it was on the Banned Terrorist Subtances List, then got removed with no explanation. No country or facility (including Tull), is allowed to hold in one place, the amount the facilities here do, when it is pelletised -so WTF IS going on. Historically, outside of Us and OZ, its mainly been intended for humans; briefly in Iraq,seized by US and apparently never deployed, and Nazi Germany, where its use for killing people was discontinued because it was too dangerous.(they didnt invent it..they discovered it; German Military Chemists, WW2) This is seriously not the sort of shit we should "sprinkling' from the air! I think Tull should be forced to "Open-its-books", to see Who, is being paid-off. After thinking about this for years, its the only thing that makes sense given the amount of opposition within DOC itself.

Soooo..... not only is there some evil 1080 conspiracy in NZ that has the power to manipulate successive governments and successive departments, there’s also the next level of ultra-villain in the US that can override all democratic processes to continue to sell its super poison to the bottomless cash cow that is..... New Zealand.

Isnt it a pity DOC will not open it doors and let everybody see what they are doing? The fact it is a closed shop and is fighting the 1080 opponents tells me something is wrong. It aint rocket science, just be open and allow independents to tell the truth, whatever that is?

On costs. The difference between trappers businesses today and 1080, is that 1080 is paid for by taxpayer ($57 per in 2010 per audited AHB costs) while trappers get nil as a general circumstance. If a trapping industry were to be proerly established and funded to the same degree as 1080 is, then it would be "no contest" ,in favour of trapping; and without all the harm, pollution, by-kill and controversy. The rougher 1080 aeas are costing upwards of $80 per ha and some areas are been done annually, others commonly on an ongoing 3 yearly cycle.

The base example I have given was of imo a typical average line of 10km with a base 1080 equivalent cost applied, which amounts to $12,000. The normal working year, 5 days a week, is 234 days. Assume 200 days actually worked per man. 200 * 200 ha is 40,000 ha per man per year serviced / covered. 1080 equivalent costs is at least $40,000* $60 = $2.4 million currently invested, along with all the negative unavoidable effects and low manpower / employment benefits.
I am aware of a few artificially high trapping payments being offered by AHB/DoC and these ofers are being used to blindside politicians into beliving (wrongly) that trapping is a high cost and non viable alternative and should therefore be discounted.
Permanent established trap lines serviced on going by traps and trappers well managed as an established control method can replace 1080 practically anywhere.
Against this comonsense solution is the fact that deer, pigs, chamois, tahr etc would not be victims, much to the chagrin of DoC and Twig and Tweet.
The three yearly poison and hope cycle of destruction with 1080 would cease and be replaced by semi permanent medium to long term control by trapping, probably with some ferratox as an adjunct in certain situations. No reason why rodent and mustelid traps cannot be included along set permanent lines in conjunction with the larger possum traps.
The thing is, if the same money currently being invested in 1080 operations was diverted into a well set up trapping department, we would see an end to 1080 and an end to the crap that goes with it. @ebf, of course there would be monitoring and some admin and o/head costs, including helicopters to service flycamps in remote reas, but so what! Just divert existing investment fully into this alternative.
As to manpower, I already covered that issue in an earlier post. In my earlier life as a professional forest /logging production manager I established training gangs for exactly this purpose. It can be done, and an important aspect is to ensure regular employment for security of family income.
For far too long NZ animal control has been mismanged and the obvious and pre-existing alternative has been deliberately suppressed.

Woody, you are bemoaning the economics of 1080, I asked you some really basic questions about the economics of your alternative.

Could you please answer them in point-wise fashion.

200 days, assuming 8 hour day is 1600 hours. divide that into the 12K, and you get $ 7.5 per hour. So you are proposing paying thousands of people well below minimum wage for extremely hard work, in rough terrain, in all kinds of weather ? And we have not paid for the setup or monitoring costs yet. Something does not make sense...

P.S. I'm off to go tramping in the Tararuas, so will read your reply tomorrow.

Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

Sugar is possibly the most lethal poison (deaths per capita) we have in NZ at the moment.

To compare sugar with 1080 bud you would have to be as stupid as DOC.
Sugar is bad news yes ,it just takes a hell of a lot more and years to take it's toll. And just like 1080 it breaks down in water right?
yeah but it's still there eh.
I've said it before and I'll say it again ..unless you have been in the 1080 industry then you only know what you have been spun.

Some good points woody, but are the ahb and doc the same for funding?. I pay an ahb levy in my regional rates, and have 75 bait stations on my property the position of which are all gps recorded. Talking with the applicators they do not do the doc land in the district. Leg trap monitor lines have failed to catch anything for the last 3 years apart from some hedgehogs and a baby goat. There was a 1080 drop done here maybe 10-15 years ago on one huge scrub block after tb was found on neighboring farms. Since then the bait station program has been regularly pursued and last year we moved to 2 yearly testing.
The baits are brodi, but some ferratox was used last year. They dont like ferratox if there are rats as they chew the baits but their mouths dont crush the capsules.
No effort is made to harvest fur obviously and the stations are only checked annually, the old mouldy bait removed and buried and replaced with fresh.
You seem to be proposing a semi self funding harvest system which may work in more accessible areas but for a ground based operation in remote areas the ahb model would be more effective I feel.

200 days at $12,000 per day . C'mon ebf. Do the math properly. The cost equivalent at 1080 rates is $12,000 (per 200 ha line). Even if you assume that a line is serviced three times over a three man day period the earning is $4000 per day, less servicing costs. In a 40,000 ha block, I would be looking at a 10 to 20 man crew and it would be serviced in 600 man days @ 3 days per line / 20 men = 30 days for $2,400,000. In fact I reckon it could be done for less cost than that, but that is the transferred 1080 investment in todays figures.
Also there are heaps of areas that are tracked and roaded where costs would be considerably less, such that the saving in these easy areas would offset the higher costs incurred in very remote and rugged areas.

@Marty Henry. It's "horses for courses" adaptations. Your point illustrates clearly that once control is established, then servicing becomes quite cheap. The thing is, that trapping can replace 1080 to knock down numbers and then the areas serviced on an ongoing basis. I don't believe the poison advocates are so dumb as to not realise trapping can replace 1080; therefore the current regime must be deliberate, and for the wrong reasons in my view.
The question of funding to AHB and DoC is really not an issue because at the end of the day all the money is provided by us, the taxpayer, just channelled slightly differently by the bean counters and bs artists. I all comes out of the same pot; us.

Originally Posted by doinit

To compare sugar with 1080 bud you would have to be as stupid as DOC.
Sugar is bad news yes ,it just takes a hell of a lot more and years to take it's toll. And just like 1080 it breaks down in water right?
yeah but it's still there eh.
I've said it before and I'll say it again ..unless you have been in the 1080 industry then you only know what you have been spun.

Not really man. There is a tonne of independent, peer reviewed science you can read. Pretty hard to 'spin' that. The reading I have done paints a grim, non perfect but ultimately beneficial outcome for our native species. The spin by either side of the argument simply focuses on the positive or negative while ignoring the other.

@Nick-D. A load of diversion.
If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

@Nick-D. A load of diversion.
If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

Originally Posted by Woody

@Nick-D. A load of diversion.
If people want to study the science then go to 1080 Science | Scientific findings on 1080

Mate that site isn't science. It's opinions with references to studies. I've read plenty on there.

She makes good points, but often attributes correlation as causation, and makes ideological leaps of faith. You have to understand it is just one person's opinion.

If you read the references often they don't even support the argument she is making.

It's always good to question and review but you are only looking at the issue from one perspective. There are a platitude of resources to read and plenty of scientific findings to base your opinion on.

That site is the anti 1080 equivalent of the doc articles. Reference what's useful disgard the rest.

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