I heard tonight that local farmers are being warned by WorkSafe about the health and safety implications of letting amateur hunters onto their land. Evidently with no insurance and no JSA we're a big problem now. Any suggestions?
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I heard tonight that local farmers are being warned by WorkSafe about the health and safety implications of letting amateur hunters onto their land. Evidently with no insurance and no JSA we're a big problem now. Any suggestions?
There are links somewhere on here. The gist of it is that hunting where there are no ongoing farming activities the health and safety has nothing to do with landowner. If you fall down a trench that's just dug for a waterline then landowner shout have put tape round it. I'm no lawyer but that's the way I have interpreted things
I won't be able to fart shortly, unless I have a bucket strapped to my arse! Why do NZers let this shit happen. DOC land will be next! A big money grab IMHO and kill as much fun as possible!
Not only in areas with "ongoing farming activity" nothing is in concrete yet but the regulations are tightening leading us to be pretty careful about who is let on farm fullstop. Even contractors etc have to have a full safety briefing and sign a declaration saying they understand all the literature contained within our hazard register(which is about twenty pages long in itself). Its a pain in the ass, cant make a simple call to someone to come and do a job anymore, if they havnt been on farm within the past 6 months they have to be taken through the whole nine yards.
@Maca49 course your allowed to fart but only if you have paid the relevant tax!
Yep that's what it's about, tax!
Thank you Ryan. That's exactly what I'd heard. It's a shame but also understandable. So a contractor vs an amateur is always going to be preferable from now I'm guessing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
They can regulate as much as they want and take all the prosecutions they can handle but they will never eliminate the freak / chance accident and they will never take the dumb out of idjits that do stupid stuff.
We are pretty hot on it here as we cant afford not to be, due to the way things are heading we have to cover our ass from all directions, cant just worry about our own staff anymore, we just recently gained what they call a "tertiary level" certification from Farmsafe and ACC which does come with the benefits of a lower levy as we have everything in place, some farmers are still laid back but the direction everything is going is going to mean they will all have to come up to this level also.
It all sounds like BULLSHIT to me, to me------------ to me!,
What they havnt factored in is mental health, some weeks I think im going to lose my bloody mind due to all the paperwork involved, I wanted to be a farmer because I enjoy being outdoors, living rural, working with animals all that lovely farmer stuff, but I could damn near just wear a suit and tie and sit in my office all week
As long as the hunter has done a task analysis and signed off on your hazard register you should be alright. In saying that its all getting a bit over the top. Worksafe have been told to generate income so they are out there looking for anything that they can issue fines for.
Thats just the start of it, believe me, we have had farmsafe and acc here every second day the last few weeks getting this all sorted out, basically what we are doing now is going to become requirements for all farmers, theres going to be a lot of farmers that just close the gates as its too much trouble just to allow someone to go shoot a deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by nelpop
Visitors and events on farms – Safer Farms
Farmers are certainly running scared about H&S, but its more about poor understanding of the legislation and unfounded fear of prosecution than it is about draconian legislation.
Farmers had a poor understanding of the previous HSE Act, let alone this new one which is more complex and regulatory.
If farmers discharge their higher duties as a PCBU (person conducting a business or undertaking), they should be well covered for any risks to visitors and hunters, albeit that that's a generalisation.
You mentioned FarmSafe Ryan. I was the external consultant to ACC on FarmSafe's design and development. I worked alongside a man named John Wallaart who led the ACC team. It was a great work period of my life, and I'm proud of what we created. If you live to be 67 you can pack a fair bit into a working life :)
The work safe people I spoke to said it's not work so they don't care. There's lots of bs going around about work safe, plenty of it is company policy going over board protecting themselves I was told.
Very cool link Tahr, thanks very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Running events, i deal with several farm owners and managers and your link confirms almost exactly what i tell managers and what is reflected in our events and shooting procedures... and now i have a link i can pass to them if they want to read it from someone else.
Cheers!
I think you are correct Tahr it's the fear of prosecution that's the prob, the fear of the ugh known, as a great pilot once uttered. That is my fear, a guys dies in my employ and I lose everything and go to goal, it's unfair and draconian for sure. I have no chance, I pray it doesn't happen, even with my H&S policy in place. That's the killer, why would anyone open themselves up to the risks by owning a small business. The cost of compliance is also a deterrent, but there's money in it, that's the big flaw in the system.
Thats true Tahr, we are not "barred" from allowing recreational hunters, visitors etc onto the property, BUT, the processes involved, and the level of trust we need to place upon those persons has lead us here to just put an end to any of that fullstop, and it is now written into farm policy, then its one less thing for us to worry about. There will be farmers out there that will continue as always, and there will be others like us who have decided its not worth the trouble.
Its a legitimate concern, but I think that the probability is very slim. I don't know of any precedent that supports your fear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Can't argue against that approach really. Damn shame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
A slight aside.
SAR teams now have to write up and sign a risk assessment before deploying to the field and try and save lives. :(
Time wasting, arse covering bullshit IMHO
Its a crying shame, I cant even really have a mate out to shoot a few gongs. Was funny though as part of all the scrutinisation we went through these past few weeks we had to explain the sign in/out procedure, which starts with ringing the farm manager before entering the property (my number is on a sign at all road gates), second day they turned up I was a couple of minutes late to meet them at the office, one of them jokingly says "youre late, hahaha" to which I replied "you didn't follow procedure and call me before entering the property so I actually assumed YOU were late..." Silence all round
:)
We need to brexit this work safe shite -it's gone too far... it's as I heard once...its taken what was a good idea conceptually to protecting staff to rediculous extremes of impracticality and added unnecessary overheads and cost...
It will ruin everything that was great about this country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem
Well I don't 'like' this but it sums things upQuote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
I don't want to be first, if I own a logging company, it would have been closed or sold the stress would kill me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Test and tagging is a sample of the crap with H&S, builders every 3 months, engineering workshops every 3 or 6 mths, I have a couple of Engineering companies at a cost of over 3k every 3 months, including some repairs. This work can basically be done by an untrained idiot using a testing machine, a compedent person, whatever that is, or someone with a EST qualification but no practical experience! Testing single phase must be a challenge and three phase would be a nightmare for most. But on goes the tag and alls good, really, 3 k every three months for some unqualified guy or a nil practical experience guy to say alls safe? I have some very experienced guys working for me and at times it's still a struggle to sort some of this gear out. But there's the joke, it's all about paper work and money. Anyone doing this work should be suitably qualified with practical experience, or it's a rout!
Ryan you can, you own the land and the business, you can do what you like, it ain't Russia yet, I would simply put a system in place and assess my risk, and be safe, the odds are in your favour and nobody should take your ability to do what you want on your own land, deem the gong range your private property and not part of the businessQuote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I do some poor builder in Wellington! $60 k I think, it stinksQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Yeah. I saw that and a few others. Pretty tough. But you were talking about jail and a ruined business and thats a big step up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
In the builder's case his insurance paid $45k of the reparation that was ordered. It pays to have insurance, although I think fines can't be insured against under the Act. Only costs and reparation orders I think.
Something else I think is that almost invariably when there is a prosecution its because of some pretty damn dumb behaviour, and not just WorkSafe being picky. A few dollars for rubbers on the ladder would have mitigated the risk for that builder. Despite the builder's instructions to not use the ladder, it was on the site, so was an accident waiting to happen.
thats me fucked :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Well, I don't actually own the land Maca, I do run the business though so the buck can and will stop with me, there was quite a bit of consultation between management and the owners of the propertys and at the end of the day we just decided it was easier that way, it certainly was not a set in concrete requirement but it seemed to make the suits from ACC/Worksafe/Farmsafe happy.
We are having all electrical appliances tagged soon also, the company doing it are set to make a killing! theres a whole new industry springing up around H&S! we provide accommodation also so are having the refrigerators, ovens, microwaves, rice cookers and anything else that belongs to the company tagged also to cover our ass
I carry the same insurance, but it doesn't cover the fine, I think a death would see me wiped out, be it me fault or not, that means the business gone and 5 guys looking for other jobs to support their families, my approach would be more supportive. I had a customer bring in a liniser machine that had been deemed unsafe, work safe wanted a pedal switch on a lead attached to operate it, we said nope it's dangerous, has your foot captured and moving around with the piece your polishing you'd be off balance. We suggested an emergency stop on the machine. Guy asked me to ring the girl from work safe to discuss. She told me she wasn't an expert in this field but had seen the foot pedal on other machines, I told her my thoughts and she said if I signed a letter to her with my idea for her files it would be ok? She really had no idea but all the power, I cringe at these on the hoof decisions. Same as chuck covers, a dangerous addition to any lathe, and I've been working on a lathe since I was 13, but hey what do I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I'll come and do it for you if I can go shooting? Oh fuck that's a no!:D
@Tahr That's a name from the past, Johns a good guy, I did his flying training back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
Yeah, a nice man. I still see him from time to time. He recently completed a PhD in H&S. I think the research was into respiratory devices.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdoorlad
Whenever we flew together with Air NZ he was plotting courses and mucking around with his techo watch for the whole flight. :)
Why don't you send a person on the course and buy a PAT machine? You'd have covered your cost easily within 6 mths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maca49
Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
You've hit the nail on the head! What course? An hour with the guy that sells you the machine? I've got a registered electrician and a guy with 37 yrs repairing electric motors, power tools, pumps etc, can work with unlimited voltage. Now if they are have discussions on the best way to make a machine compliant, an hours course with some with a vested interest, you gonna know shit, except what the machine tells you. It makes a mockery of Electrical ComplianceQuote:
Originally Posted by Koshogi
Everybody testing should not only be qualified, but they should have practical hours built up as well, a little more than fitting a plug on a lead. I get companies doing their own compliance getting me to test their extension leads single and three phase, their 3 phase equipment, their RCDs, cause their test man doesn't know how? But he can test their plug in powertools? It's a bit of a joke to me!
Thank you all, Ryan in particular. I feel for you buddy. We're going to have an awful lot of goats and rabbits running around quite soon.
Indirectly through certain clients that my company contract to, Health and safety has become an all encompassing juggernaut that has more to do with ass covering than tenable gains in workplace safety.
Corporate safety officers and managers with no task experience, generally dreaming up bullshit policy that they feel keeps them safe from repercussion.
Try as they might, stupidity and risk cannot be completely legislated out of the work place. I find working on a heavily regulated site very sterile and the part of the workforce that thrives are generally yes men. Little flair for problem solving, imagination or drive and in my experience no safer than industry sectors which are less regulated.
Industry is set to tip in favour of the corporates as they love regulation and costs involved in compliance, it squashes small business as they can't readily absorb the cost.
That's another kettle of fish, the numbers are going to sky-rocket in some areas!Quote:
Originally Posted by YosemiteSam