Thread: X-ray of shot deer

Originally Posted by Rusky

Certainly gets you thinking.

Back in the 80's or earlier, farmers/mechanics never wore gloves or respirators when dealing with chemicals. I have had 3 family members not blood related develop parkinsons. Recent studies have shown exposure to certain chemicals triggers cells associated with parkinsons. No turning back once it starts.

That could be. And I'm sympathetic. We live with carcinogenic chemicals daily.
Unfortunately proves nothing regarding lead poisoning.

And what happens in Africa India or China are all irrelevant.

Before there is even ANY talk about banning lead bullets the authorities need to PROVE that there is a health issue. Then they need to explaine why they should remove our choice to use cup and core

They have and should,,, IF there is a proven health issue inform and educate, NOT dictate.

Have they banned swimming due to drownings,, NO, they manage it and educate.

Have been out shooting stuff for the last few days but following thread as and when I get reception. All I can say is that if you’re worried about lead contamination just head or neck shoot animals or leave meat on animal from shot zone as I do when shooting for supply to others. Or use solid copper bullets but remember copper poisoning is a thing too. Referencing articles from places with high environmental lead levels is irrelevant/pointless to my mind. About the only thing I got out of video about accubonds is don’t use them because they’re too frangible. Pisses me off a bit as I’ve got a couple of hundred for 6.5, just have to use on goats or targets I suppose. The water container test was interesting because I’ve done similar with nearly every bullet brand/style I’ve used to get an idea how they perform and apart from ‘ varmint’ bullets generally haven’t seen fragmentation quite like shown in video. Maybe I’ve been lucky. Anyhow it’s up to individual choice what bullet one uses. Just remember there’s shit around in everyday environment that’s not good for you. I choose not to be easily influenced without doing my own methodical relevant research.General Google searches and Wikipedia don’t count unless well referenced and/or peer reviewed either.

Originally Posted by woods223

Have been out shooting stuff for the last few days but following thread as and when I get reception. All I can say is that if you’re worried about lead contamination just head or neck shoot animals or leave meat on animal from shot zone as I do when shooting for supply to others. Or use solid copper bullets but remember copper poisoning is a thing too. Referencing articles from places with high environmental lead levels is irrelevant/pointless to my mind. About the only thing I got out of video about accubonds is don’t use them because they’re too frangible. Pisses me off a bit as I’ve got a couple of hundred for 6.5, just have to use on goats or targets I suppose. The water container test was interesting because I’ve done similar with nearly every bullet brand/style I’ve used to get an idea how they perform and apart from ‘ varmint’ bullets generally haven’t seen fragmentation quite like shown in video. Maybe I’ve been lucky. Anyhow it’s up to individual choice what bullet one uses. Just remember there’s shit around in everyday environment that’s not good for you. I choose not to be easily influenced without doing my own methodical relevant research.General Google searches and Wikipedia don’t count unless well referenced and/or peer reviewed either.

I used to tell my lads that before taking a position or firming an opinion to seek out and consider 3 well informed and objected pieces of information. Triangulation.

https://leadaware.nz/blood-lead-testing/

Like usual both sides of the argument are just people preaching to the converted. Without data our opinions mean nothing.

Damn it! I've just got my 7m08 shooting 0.5MOA 3 round groups with the Winchester Dear Season XP (copper core) and its dropping everything it hits beautifully. Now I've gotta find a copper replacement!

This video I found super interesting when considering the merits of each type of bullet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_oYH_dXGDM takeaways:
- Copper bullets seem to expand better up to 300 yards (or whatever their required velocity is for expansion), beyond that lead was better.
- All bullets perform very similar
- American's didn't seem to realise that hitting the shoulder would cause more shock, expansion and therefore takedown... isn't that obvious?
- There's a point in the video where they don't like the mid gel (body) expansion of the lead core bullets or the fact that they start tumbling. I'd disagree with that point. I know from my Army days we were told 223/5.56mm was intentionally fatal due to the shock of expansion and the mass damage caused by a tumbling bullet.

I had another thought too, since we're using an academic study, which is great to be evidenced based I thought I'd use my access to a Research Database to see what other evidence is out there to feed into the topic.

This study, looked at the distance travelled by animals (thousands including brown bear and moose) after a double long shot before expiring and found no difference between copper and lead. "Our findings showed that animal flight distances varied greatly although we only used cases where bullets penetrated both lungs. Variability also increased with body mass. This pattern is to be expected because (1) total bloodvolume remains unchanged in relation to body mass, (2) blood circulation time increases with body mass, whereas (3) the radial dimension of the permanent wound cavity remains largely unchanged (Stokke et al. 2018). Thus, bleeding rates will decrease, whereas animal flight distances will increase with increasing body mass."

Unleaded hunting : Are copper bullets and lead-based bullets equally effective for killing big game?
Published in: Ambio,2019
Database:JSTOR Journals
By: Stokke, Sigbjørn;Arnemo, Jon M.;Brainerd, Scott

A critique of the RNZ referenced study is that its a small sample size of 44, and of the 44 21 samples were under the daily 'safe limit" But every other study I found indicated similar or worse concerns.

This article talks about how any exposure is dangerous
Hunting with Lead Ammunition: A One Health Perspective
Published in: Arctic One Health : Challenges for Northern Animals and People,2022
Database:Springer Nature eBooks
By: Arnemo, Jon M.;Fuchs, Boris;Sonne, Christian;Stokke, Sigbjørn


This article talks about how lead in donated food bank game meat is dangerous. It also interestingly talks about how there's evidence that lead exposure even below the FDA "safe limit" has shown harmful affects on children.
Biting the Bullet: A Call for Action on Lead-Contaminated Meat in Food Banks.
Published in: American Journal of Public Health,2022 Suppl 7
Database:CINAHL with Full Text
By: Totoni, Samantha;Fabisiak, James P.;Beasley, Val R.;Arnemo, Jon M.;+3 more

This article talks about the spread of lead through white tail deer, similar to the RNZ study
Lead concentrations in white-tailed deer tissue due to retained bullets
Published in: Human-Wildlife Interactions,2018
Database:JSTOR Journals
By: Zimmer, Meghan C.;Osier, Tod L.


What's my personal takeaway? As someone who eats 90% of my protein from wild game I shoot, as does my 4 year old son and partner. I'm going to transition to copper bullets. Any recommendations for 7m08?

Originally Posted by Average-Lad

What's my personal takeaway? As someone who eats 90% of my protein from wild game I shoot, as does my 4 year old son and partner. I'm going to transition to copper bullets. Any recommendations for 7m08?

I load Barnes 120 TTSX in 7-08 for a few Guys & they are all very happy with them

We use 110 TTSX in both our general purpose Tikka 7-08s these are doing 3400 fps & are devastating

I use Hammer projectiles, Absolutes & HHTs in a few other hunting rifles

The Hammers are more expensive than the Barnes, are way more aggressive & their terminal performance is magnificent

Generally you want light weight for caliber & plenty of velocity

Two disadvantages with the copper projectiles are cost & reduced BC, I'm more than happy with those compromises when balanced against performance on game

Originally Posted by Average-Lad


What's my personal takeaway? As someone who eats 90% of my protein from wild game I shoot, as does my 4 year old son and partner. I'm going to transition to copper bullets. Any recommendations for 7m08

In this situation I'd agree. Potentially the dose could be too high for your son especially.

I've also gotta go for an annual health check soon anyway, so I'll ask for a blood test. Sample size of one, but after 2-3 years of eating like this it should be a reliable test result.

I'd be interested to see the result. I imagine abt 90% game is waaay above average. It would be interesting if your result are pretty low.

Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

I load Barnes 120 TTSX in 7-08 for a few Guys & they are all very happy with them

We use 110 TTSX in both our general purpose Tikka 7-08s these are doing 3400 fps & are devastating

I use Hammer projectiles, Absolutes & HHTs in a few other hunting rifles

The Hammers are more expensive than the Barnes, are way more aggressive & their terminal performance is magnificent

Generally you want light weight for caliber & plenty of velocity

Two disadvantages with the copper projectiles are cost & reduced BC, I'm more than happy with those compromises when balanced against performance on game

The way you load them Greg they're moving and then some. The problem with copper bullets as I've seen a fair bit is when they're used in middling cartridges that are getting 2700 +/- a bit, especially in carbines 14-16". And then targeting the animal the same way as you would with a normal lead bullet. The traditional swaged type can be quite unforgiving with poor expansion. A behind the shoulder rear lung shot for example.

There's so many smart designs out there now, the innovation has been great to see. If you're worried about lead (I'm not) then all you need is a fast twist barrel chambered for long-for-calibre bullets in whatever calibre you like. Send the bullet of choice sensibly fast. Success will follow. And there's no need to argue about it unless a genuine official press statement is made about a review, be in on DOC land or all land or whatever. Happy lead & lead-free hunting.

Originally Posted by Flyblown

The way you load them Greg they're moving and then some. The problem with copper bullets as I've seen a fair bit is when they're used in middling cartridges that are getting 2700 +/- a bit, especially in carbines 14-16". And then targeting the animal the same way as you would with a normal lead bullet. The traditional swaged type can be quite unforgiving with poor expansion. A behind the shoulder rear lung shot for example.

There's so many smart designs out there now, the innovation has been great to see. If you're worried about lead (I'm not) then all you need is a fast twist barrel chambered for long-for-calibre bullets in whatever calibre you like. Send the bullet of choice sensibly fast. Success will follow. And there's no need to argue about it unless a genuine official press statement is made about a review, be in on DOC land or all land or whatever. Happy lead & lead-free hunting.

The biggest problems I see with monos are lack of velocity from short barrels and or poor powder choice & way to heavy for calibre

Generally you need a light projectile, a 7mm 110 in a Barnes generally stays at 105-110 grains so has a retained weight like or better than a 140 cup & core with much less recoil

In this country the 7mm Barnes 140 is ideal in a magnum cartridge not a 7-08, unless you are chasing Wild Bulls

The Hammers are different, they lose their nose into 2-3 grain bits of shrapnel then the base carries on to exit generally

The devastation from this performance needs to be seen to be believed

FWIW if I didn't have an icecream container literally full of loaded 110 TTSX 7-08 rounds I would only be using Hammers in our 7-08s

For what it is worth I have done a lot with 130ttsx out of 308, mostly launched at just shy of 3200fps and used at mostly under 200y.
They work pretty good up close at those velocitys.
Since going to a "bush pig" I have given away 200fps and the reduction in "shock" is noticeable. No more stop drop and rolls unless spine shot.
They still expand...and they still die....but not instantly like they used to....
I have a hankering to try 110gr hornady cx as designed for blackout velocity and utube gelatin tests show actual fragmentation at full barrel lenght 308 velocity.

Backcountry hunting podcast have a really good episode on this.

https://exomtngear.com/blogs/podcast/503

@SPEARONZ

Thx the two linked articles were interesting reading.