140 year old Consecutive pair of rifles. What are the chances?

Sunday I went to the Timaru Antique Arms Auction to pick up a couple of purchases from a guy coming up from Southland.
There was also an item in the auction that I was interested in bidding on if I hadn't spent too much cash on the sales tables.

One of the pick up was a Marlin Ballard no4 38-55 rifle circa 1885.
Now I already had a very nice complete MB no4 38-55 but you don't pass up on these when you get the chance to buy one.
This more recent purchase was minus a fore end, sights and had a broken hard rubber butt plate.
But the price was ok and MBs don't come up for sale often.

These No4s ( hunting model ) are the forged steel frame, single trigger, shotgun butt variation, so was always the preferred model anyway.

This morning the Ballard was the last of the three rifles I had brought home that I got around to stripping and looking at its various good and bad points.
Minus fore end. The Ballard fore end is prone to cracking at the front edges on the heave octagonal barrel.
Minus all sights.
Broken hard rubber monogrammed butt plate. A USA company makes repops but permits and USA !
Mechanically good
Bore very good
So on the whole a very nice Ballard and I have the exact same model already to reverse engineer the repairs from.

Well I get the other MB no4 out and put them together for a few images and see if there are any slight variations in the hammers, levers or triggers ( these evolved over time even in the same model numbers ).
Peas in a pod other than the walnut stock colour as one is oiled and one has some varnish on it.

Attachment 219715

Attachment 219716

Then I looked at the serial numbers on the new ( old ) rifle and it also has a complete numbers matching set of parts.
No 23692

Attachment 219717

And check that against the serial number of the same model, same caliber and same variations rifle I restored last year which was also a complete matching parts number rifle.
No 23693

Attachment 219719

At that point I realised I had brought the two rifles from the other ends of NZ. One from Northland and one from Southland and approx 140 years since they were manufactured and consecutively numbered rifles

Now this sort of thing does happen.
But it happens to someone else.
Well this time I am "that someone else"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

Sunday I went to the Timaru Antique Arms Auction to pick up a couple of purchases from a guy coming up from Southland.
There was also an item in the auction that I was interested in bidding on if I hadn't spent too much cash on the sales tables.

One of the pick up was a Marlin Ballard no4 38-55 rifle circa 1885.
Now I already had a very nice complete MB no4 38-55 but you don't pass up on these when you get the chance to buy one.
This more recent purchase was minus a fore end, sights and had a broken hard rubber butt plate.
But the price was ok and MBs don't come up for sale often.

These No4s ( hunting model ) are the forged steel frame, single trigger, shotgun butt variation, so was always the preferred model anyway.

This morning the Ballard was the last of the three rifles I had brought home that I got around to stripping and looking at its various good and bad points.
Minus fore end. The Ballard fore end is prone to cracking at the front edges on the heave octagonal barrel.
Minus all sights.
Broken hard rubber monogrammed butt plate. A USA company makes repops but permits and USA !
Mechanically good
Bore very good
So on the whole a very nice Ballard and I have the exact same model already to reverse engineer the repairs from.

Well I get the other MB no4 out and put them together for a few images and see if there are any slight variations in the hammers, levers or triggers ( these evolved over time even in the same model numbers ).
Peas in a pod other than the walnut stock colour as one is oiled and one has some varnish on it.

Attachment 219715

Attachment 219716

Then I looked at the serial numbers on the new ( old ) rifle and it also has a complete numbers matching set of parts.
No 23692

Attachment 219717

And check that against the serial number of the same model, same caliber and same variations rifle I restored last year which was also a complete matching parts number rifle.
No 23693

Attachment 219719

At that point I realised I had brought the two rifles from the other ends of NZ. One from Northland and one from Southland and approx 140 years since they were manufactured and consecutively numbered rifles

Now this sort of thing does happen.
But it happens to someone else.
Well this time I am "that someone else"

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well buy a bloody lotto what are the chances neat to see these lovely old rifles find a great home

Unreal

What are the chances of that eh
I was amazed when you called me earlier
They must have been in the same shipment
Would be interesting to know if they were originally shipped to nz or if they were imported at a later date maybe by someone who immigrated
It is hard to believe that they would have come to nz separately
Id say that they would have originally come together for sure
Amazing they by chance found there way back together and even better both in 100% original and shootable condition

I spoke to both the guys I brought these rifles off and they were stunned and delighted to hear the story

Hopefully they will try and get some more info together about the prior owners

That is pretty cool

I do have a rifle that is supposed to be 1 half of a consecutive pair once owned by the Tisdalls , so its other half should be floating around this country of ours somewhere .

That is absolutely amazing. I have two unfired krico from the 70’s, consecutive numbers which I thought was amazing, to find two this age is a collectors dream come true, well done mate

You can make them into a pair .1 and 2. And make a lined case for them with an old Ballard reproduction paper inside. That would be a kool project

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Friwi

You can make them into a pair .1 and 2. And make a lined case for them with an old Ballard reproduction paper inside. That would be a kool project

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That is the plan.
I'm a retired commercial joiner, builder and tree farmer.
So I have the Joinery skills and the timber to make a decent case for them to be placed in.

The really crazy thought is that there might be another consecutive rifle either side of these ones numbers that still exists in NZ

I'm picking these ones came in one shipment and there might have been more than two

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waynesworld

That is absolutely amazing. I have two unfired krico from the 70’s, consecutive numbers which I thought was amazing, to find two this age is a collectors dream come true, well done mate

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This I quite believe with Krico's, the importer must have had batches as I had two Model 300's 3 last numbers different at one stage. Bought 30+ years apart.

Pretty cool for sure and must add quite a bit to the potential value. What were people shooting with them 140 years ago ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mathias

This I quite believe with Krico's, the importer must have had batches as I had two Model 300's 3 last numbers different at one stage. Bought 30+ years apart.

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Yes, agreed. And now Akaroa has me thinking there is quite possibly a 3rd or 4th.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waynesworld

Yes, agreed. And now Akaroa has me thinking there is quite possibly a 3rd or 4th.....

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Ah. In search of the holy grail

I thought finding another no4 38-55 was pretty cool after diligently searching for the first one.
Then another no4 38-55 falls out of a tree and hits me on the head ( well it came to me randomly from an existing contact ) .

Attachment 219766Attachment 219767

Greetings to you all,
It never ceases to amaze me how those of us, of a certain age, can get such a kick of faffing about with old rifles. The subject rifles are chambered for a cartridge on which the sun was setting at the end of the century before last. This fills us with joy as does returning the rifles to their former glory and maybe even taking them for a hunt. Well done @akaroa1 you have been blessed. The word has obviously got out in the nice old rifle fraternity that a nice home can be found in your safe.
Regards Grandpamac.

My gunsmithing mentor Mr Vulcan barrels has just visited expressly to view this wonderful pair of rifles
So I now have made the promise to get the sights on the latest one sorted and have them both ready to be shot together ASAP and for us to share a very special whisky afterward

I have suppressed three consecutive serial numbers tikka t3x in 308 last week , imagine how hard it going to be to re unite them in 140 years from now .
There would be so many thousands of them on the nz market!

Soldered a brass blade into what was left of the original Ballard front sight base

Attachment 220555

And drifted in a BSA rear sight that fitted the original dovetail

Attachment 220556

Fired the first two shots at 50m with the rear sight elevator 1/3 up
Pretty happy with that

Attachment 220557

Took the sight elevator out and fired 3 more shots

Attachment 220558

Didn't shift the impact much but my guess it's zeroed for 100m maybe now

Have loaded 25 rounds and will shoot them both together some time soon

shock horror,is that an adjustable nut fcuker I spy on your bench?????
thought you would be a full on spanners shadow hung on wall or in foam lined draw sort of a fella......tis ok for mere heathens like myself to use such a lowly instrament but for it to be seen in your presence raises all sorts of questions about the state of the world!!!

and where is the forewood??? it might possibly lower impact with barrel harmonics??
taller front =lower rear.....maybe your new blade could be tad low for ideal.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Waynesworld

Attachment 219766Attachment 219767

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they are really nice congrats

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and where is the forewood??? it might possibly lower impact with barrel harmonics??
taller front =lower rear.....maybe your new blade could be tad low for ideal.....

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@Micky Duck it lost its fore end and sights some time in the last 140 years
I don't think barrel harmonics are a big deal with 7/8th inch parralel octagonal barrels

The sights were just to see if it could fling bullets reasonably close together
Now that I know it can, I will make some decent sights for it that will be more suited to dawn and dusk
A #4 Ballard is a hunting rifle

Well, FMDrunk

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

The really crazy thought is that there might be another consecutive rifle either side of these ones numbers that still exists in NZ

I'm picking these ones came in one shipment and there might have been more than two

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I wonder how many came in a crate ex factory

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johnd

I wonder how many came in a crate ex factory

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There's a pretty good chance there's a number adjacent to these still in NZ

That they are now together and both fully functional at 140 years old is pretty exciting

The more recently acquired one is mechanically in better condition, but rougher on the exterior.
So will be a very good shooter once I find a vintage tang sight for it

The second Ballard that was minus sights and a fore end now has a new fore end which is a nice match with the original butt stock

Attachment 222451
Attachment 222447

A new old globe front sight.
Actually a Winchester sight but often used in the Ballard in the day according to the Ballard Bible

Attachment 222448

A rear sight dovetail blank made from a broken front sight

Attachment 222449

A Lyman tang sight with the correct hole spacing and staff angle.
But needs a better staff and aperture.
This staff is for a boys rifle and boys eyes!

Attachment 222450

I still need to get a permit to import for a reproduction hard rubber butt plate from USA.
Only $35us but what a butt pain to get one

Revisiting this old friend to get it hunting ready

Made a pass through sizer to get the bullets to the perfect size for the fired cases and no resizing with BP loads

Tapped and fitted a Parker Hale sight eye cup

Attachment 240424

Been doing some testing with grease cookies and wads to be able to shoot multiple shots without BP fouling being a problem.
Seem to have it pretty well sorted.

First few shots at 60m were low.
Wound the staff up two turns and fired last 4 shots.

Attachment 240425

So cleaned my 8 in use cases to reload this evening.
Get another 50 from Gunworks and load some of those and this rifle can go for a wander

Revisiting this old friend to get it hunting ready

Made a pass through sizer to get the bullets to the perfect size for the fired cases and no resizing with BP loads

Tapped and fitted a Parker Hale sight eye cup

Attachment 240424

Been doing some testing with grease cookies and wads to be able to shoot multiple shots without BP fouling being a problem.
Seem to have it pretty well sorted.

First few shots at 60m were low.
Wound the staff up two turns and fired last 4 shots.

Attachment 240425

So cleaned my 8 in use cases to reload this evening.
Get another 50 from Gunworks and load some of those and this rifle can go for a wander

Those photos are like peering through a steamy window at a sexy damsel, just enough detail to excite you.
I'm tempted to start a "get akaroa a decent camera give a little page"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Those photos are like peering through a steamy window at a sexy damsel, just enough detail to excite you.
I'm tempted to start a "get akaroa a decent camera give a little page"

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Steam powered mobile phone
Ideal for vintage rifles