22 RF Tuner strategies?

Giidday Guys

After exploring a lot of other parts of "the 22 RF Warren" I finally arrived at a door labeled "Tuners - yet another route to madness" so I've ripped it open and walked right in. Being a cheap sorta bastard I've declined to go with the big name versions like the Harrels or Eric Cortina . . . The one that arrived here is made by FX for airguns and set me back $189 to my door (from the UK, I find their prices and esp postage are reasonable, got here in less than two weeks).

Apart from cheap the FX comes with a neat trick, it's threaded 1/2x20 but has a series of adapters that go on the front that take a suppressor of either 1/2x20, 1/2x28 etc.

Attachment 232170

It's gonna need a bit of fine tuning, the thread for receiving the muzzle thread isn't deep enough. However easily fixed. Also needs an index mark.

So now the questions start . . . .

Do I start with it on my most accurate 22, or pick something that is showing potential but needs improvement?

Does anyone have a preferred adjustment protocol that suits our limited ammo availability?

I bought a Lowey tuner for my LA101 earlier this year. Due to an annoying health issue I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Hopefully will get to the range later this year.
Mine was NZ$212.

So, I've still to learn how to tune tuners.

Watched Jason on Pursuit Of Accuracy and he had fitted one (EC) to the POS Springfield 2020. His adjustments were large until he appeared to start to get an improvement but alas, didn't end well. Where he started from I don't know.

I would not be trying to tune ammo that is known to perform poorly. I think that is a waste of time. I would try with quality ammo that maybe is not performing as well as hoped in a good rifle. I know from my limited knowledge of CF tuners they are used to improve good loads. The old you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear applies I think.
At any rate look fwd to OP posting his results.
https://youtu.be/ROxIqBiBQgM?si=i3kuPLA7cGrNQRsq
https://youtu.be/3i1U7i4R_dg?si=B9lKqb0leYZ0A5-8
Attachment 232207

Hmmm , very useful answer "try quality ammo in a good rifle that isnt going as well as expected " I like that! I'll dig out some older batches of Eley Match and Fiocchi F320

So in a nutshell how does the tuner work? Yeah I know I could Google it but being a lazy bastard...

Its a weight on a fine thread, wind it in or out to alter your barrel harmonic.

Yeah, they won't fix fooked.

But, if you have a brand of ammo that is producing nice circular reliable groups that are bigger than you'd think it should - that's a good candidate for tuning. Double grouping or stringing isn't, that's another issue.

Record everything, so you know what each change does - don't fly by the seat of your pants and document it well in terms of measurements or the like so you can reproduce it if you have to change it. That and isolate everything else so it's only the tuning changes that have an effect so as much as you can shoot without any external or environmental effects twitching you.

Ah good. Someone with actual experience. What rifle are you using your tuner on and what brand of tuner?

And it just occured to me that it'd be a waste of time and money to tune to an ammo that you dont have a decent amount of on hand after the tuning process.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

And it just occured to me that it'd be a waste of time and money to tune to an ammo that you dont have a decent amount of on hand after the tuning process.

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Jason in his vid chewed thru I think 100 rounds of Eley Match for no improvement on the Springfield. But that was a lost cause. Hopefully, with a good performing rifle there can be improvements.
Also we are just learning so there has to be some wasteage.

I have my Walther, Anschutz 54 and the LA0101 that I use for 100yd group shooting but only the Lithgow is threaded.

I'm looking fwd to trying mine but have read several forum postings where the owners have removed their tuners in frustration. Other shooters (experienced) who won't even entertain tuners.

I got no starting point instructions for mine so it's a suck it and see initially. Whilst I've got a good stock of ammo I'm reluctant to burn thru too much without tangible results.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

And it just occured to me that it'd be a waste of time and money to tune to an ammo that you dont have a decent amount of on hand after the tuning process.

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Or at least a decent amount of individual lots of the same ammo. Changing lots, the bane of rimfire, would possible see better or poorer results from the previous lot. Still, that's what we hope the tuner will assist with.
I tried RWS R50 in my rifles and it was poor. All gone now and I'll never buy any more, but maybe that would have responded to a tuner.

Much as I'd expected https://defensiveedge.net/barrel-tun...up-adjustment/

I put one on 22 CZ for a guy a couple of weeks back and he seems pleased with the results, closing group size by 20% or so.

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Originally Posted by zimmer

Ah good. Someone with actual experience. What rifle are you using your tuner on and what brand of tuner?

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I'm not now, but was when I was doing rimfire target. To be fair, there are several methods for 'tuning' or twitching the resonance of the barrel - the muzzle device is but one. Others include weights that strap or clamp to the barrel and can be slid back and forwards, or different amounts of padding in between the barrel and front of the forestock (pressure point dampening).

All basically seek to achieve the same thing, forcibly adjust the barrel harmonics to get the bullet leaving the muzzle at the same point in the wave cycle each time. Where it gets funky, is the tuning is really only one part of the problem - if your ammo isn't identical and the rifle is sensitive to humidity temperature or some other factor that you haven't worked out like time of the month or the flavour the colour blue sounds like, stand by to go insane.

In other words, you can only reliably tune using a weight or device if everything else is the same every time and not affected by something else external to the rifle...

Oh OK I thought you were a knowledgable current user.

I'm aware of all above. And yes I log all atmospherics when shooting 100yd groups and yes I'm aware the tune can change session to session.

My KK Match Walther is equiped to do above but weights or straps are a pain in the arse and not suited to the likes of the LA101 which can be used for hunting as well.

My first candidate will be SK Rifle Match and SK Pistol Match which I stocked up when last available but did not perform as well as SK Std.

Yeah, the Lapua and Eley offerings I was using don't seem to be available now or have changed from what was the norm so aren't a worthwhile starting place (only have a few packets of each left for testing basically). If you wanted to be brutal the other tuning method I didn't mention was chopping sections off the barrel haha.

I agree with the barrel weights, pain in the bum - a bit of a bump and you're back all over the place. The muzzle weight is the least fluffing about and of the easily adjustable methods the most resistant to a whoops but also offers the least adjustment. What the guy had in that link up there was pretty much the process we were using more or less, start at one end shoot a group and record then a coarse adjustment and another group. Basically hunting for the suitable 'nodes' in the barrel harmonics. Once a node is showing itself as promising (there should be a few), fine adjustments as per. One thing that might be a factor with target rifles with really solid chunks of metal for barrels is the barrel weight might not have enough adjustment to find a suitable node given that a series of adjustment with a barrel weight might end up an inch or two forward or back. I doubt that it would be an issue on the Lithgow though, slimmer tube.

My go to option now for a hunting style rifle is some form of a pressure pad like cork shim wrapped with tape, with tape layers that I can peel off or add to and set up to slip between the foreend and barrel with a tag that I can haul it out with. Works on centerfire too...

Usually the biggest problems with tuning are inconsistent ammo, inconsistent conditions (ie outside) & moving the tuner too much between test groups

Tuners on Rimfires are a mine field of Witchery .
I’ve played with Tuners for about 20 years ( shot competitive .22 benchrest for years ) and still use a Tuner on my Tikka T1x .
Rimfires are all about ammo , it’s as simple as that .
At distances out to 50m you will often find numerous different loads that will shoot well , find the one that shoots best and fine tune it .
When you start to extend your range to 100m and further you often find the best at 50m is no longer the best at 100/200/300
The quality and consistency of the ammo is now the major factor.
You need to chronograph different ammo types and find the one that has the best SD and ES figures, don’t worry about its grouping abilities, just find the most consistent.
Then use your tuner to get the best results you can with that ammo .
.22lr ballistics are so bad at extended ranges that just a few fps can result in many inches of vertical and wind dispersion.
You can get away with variance at 50m , and I’ve had some of the worst statistical ammo shoot the best at 50m .
My advice is find the best ammo you can without the tuner .
Install the tuner and starting from zero setting shoot 10 shot groups .
Work out how many clicks are in a full rotation of the tuner and divide it by three .
Shoot a 10 shot group then turn the tuner a third of the way around and shoot another etc etc .
You should shoot enough groups that you have made a minimum of at least three full rotations ( more is better)
Analyse your results and find the three best settings you achieved.
Then start refining those either side of that setting in smaller increments.
If your shooting is good enough fundamentally you will be seeing very minor differences once you have narrowed down the settings.
Tuners work , but they don’t perform magic.
To fully tune a rifle/tuner combo you need to shoot a lot of ammo to confirm that your results are not anomalies and are in fact real data .

Excellent, the type of advise needed thanks.

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Originally Posted by Ground Control

Tuners on Rimfires are a mine field of Witchery .
I’ve played with Tuners for about 20 years ( shot competitive .22 benchrest for years ) and still use a Tuner on my Tikka T1x .
Rimfires are all about ammo , it’s as simple as that .
At distances out to 50m you will often find numerous different loads that will shoot well , find the one that shoots best and fine tune it .
When you start to extend your range to 100m and further you often find the best at 50m is no longer the best at 100/200/300
The quality and consistency of the ammo is now the major factor.
You need to chronograph different ammo types and find the one that has the best SD and ES figures, don’t worry about its grouping abilities, just find the most consistent.
Then use your tuner to get the best results you can with that ammo .
.22lr ballistics are so bad at extended ranges that just a few fps can result in many inches of vertical and wind dispersion.
You can get away with variance at 50m , and I’ve had some of the worst statistical ammo shoot the best at 50m .
My advice is find the best ammo you can without the tuner .
Install the tuner and starting from zero setting shoot 10 shot groups .
Work out how many clicks are in a full rotation of the tuner and divide it by three .
Shoot a 10 shot group then turn the tuner a third of the way around and shoot another etc etc .
You should shoot enough groups that you have made a minimum of at least three full rotations ( more is better)
Analyse your results and find the three best settings you achieved.
Then start refining those either side of that setting in smaller increments.
If your shooting is good enough fundamentally you will be seeing very minor differences once you have narrowed down the settings.
Tuners work , but they don’t perform magic.
To fully tune a rifle/tuner combo you need to shoot a lot of ammo to confirm that your results are not anomalies and are in fact real data .

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Awesome info, thanks for taking the time to explain. I have two ammos that shoot pretty good and that I can get more of. I've tested it at 50M across 3 rifles that shoot pretty good. The Eley Team gives the lowest ES (14 to 24fps) and best SD (4.7 to 6.7) but the groups are maybe 0.1 to 0.2" bigger than the Eley Match I have tested (2 different lots, ES 19-22, SD 4.7 to 7.7).

I can't use the tuner on my best rifle (of all things a 1934 Winchester Model 52) and it's not suitable for the competitions we have here, but I'm thinking run the Eley Team in the Lithgow LA101 with the tuner.

Are the groups repeatable and not showing any of the 'group diagnosis' patterns?

I think endless chasing of the ammo that gives smallest groups in one particular rifle isn't that useful, especially given how small options are to obtain decent match grade ammo here I.e. no Lapua, SK and now overpriced RWS. So this time round on the new indent of Eley I focused on the ES and SD of the lots avaliable to me. As long as 50M groups were in the sub 0.4s in all three rifles I like to shoot the most I was happy.

The Norma Tac 22 shoots very well, pretty cheap at $12 per box if you know where to get it ;)

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Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg

The Norma Tac 22 shoots very well, pretty cheap at $12 per box if you know where to get it ;)

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It sure does, I shoot a lot of it, but I find it has frustrating fliers at a ratio of about 5 per box, once you realize that and don't let it spoil yer day life is good

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Originally Posted by Tentman

It sure does, I shoot a lot of it, but I find it has frustrating fliers at a ratio of about 5 per box, once you realize that and don't let it spoil yer day life is good

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I haven't had the feed back yet from the benchrest boys & have sold plenty of it, could be the batch ?

I am not far away from going down the rimfire tuner "rabbit hole" myself. Got a suppressor / tuner on the way.
Some good advice in this thread and follows my own thoughts - find an ammunition with good velocity consistency and attempt to tune to accuracy.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

It sure does, I shoot a lot of it, but I find it has frustrating fliers at a ratio of about 5 per box, once you realize that and don't let it spoil yer day life is good

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I regularly run a SpeedTracker chrono when shooting groups and testing ammo and the SD / ES of TAC22 is consistently 10/30, which is exactly what I get with RWS Special Match also. This is across 2 different Lot#’s of TAC22 and RWS SM.

Would be good to know what SD/ES is considered acceptable in the Benchrest world?

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Originally Posted by gqhoon

Would be good to know what SD/ES is considered acceptable in the Benchrest world?

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I doubt any would even know or check, the target is the only thing that matters, SD & ES has little to no baring on group size/point of impact at all in short range bench rest, rimfire or centrefire

External influences are far more significant, shooting outdoors without flags is next to pointless even if it "isn't windy"

Shooting 22 benchrest outdoors is the most humbling thing you can do with a rifle

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gqhoon

I regularly run a SpeedTracker chrono when shooting groups and testing ammo and the SD / ES of TAC22 is consistently 10/30, which is exactly what I get with RWS Special Match also. This is across 2 different Lot#’s of TAC22 and RWS SM.

Would be good to know what SD/ES is considered acceptable in the Benchrest world?

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Not unsurprising as RWS Match and Norma Tac-22 and RWS Special Match and Norma Match are made by the same company (was Ruag now Beretta) only the headstamps are different.

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Originally Posted by gqhoon

I regularly run a SpeedTracker chrono when shooting groups and testing ammo and the SD / ES of TAC22 is consistently 10/30, which is exactly what I get with RWS Special Match also. This is across 2 different Lot#’s of TAC22 and RWS SM.

Would be good to know what SD/ES is considered acceptable in the Benchrest world?

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Interesting results, the "best" ES/SD I've come across are the latest batches of Eley Team and Match, with ESs down to 14 in one rifle and SD 4.7. I got some for a top PRS comeditor to try, will be interesting to see what his results are.

The Tac22 can shoot very small groups, currently I'm playing with a Remmy 581, it just delivered a 0.21" group of 5 rounds at 50Y with Tac 22 - freaking awesome! Next group blew out to 0.6 but it's windy as here today so both might be flukes. Sure as hell haven't over-capitalised on the 581, has only cost $200 plus about $30 for tooling to install a rear action screw. If you wanted to be picky about costs not included is a bit of sandpaper to open up the barrel channel!

I picked up an EC Tuner on my recent ventures overseas, i have it on my BRNO Mode 2E thats quite a bit modified haha. I just like to tinker and see how accurate i can get it, its done me well out to 300 yards over the years.

I had a play with it yesterday with the tuner and supressor on, and using the white box Eley hollow points that i currently shoot in it and with not much adjustment it made quite a diffrence in group size at 100m going from 1" to 2" with only a 1/4 rotation. But this rifle does have a long skinny barrel and without the tuber i get around 1" on most days anyway, it does a bit better with the fiocci official 300 (never tried 320 for some reason).

Anyhow, be interisting to see where i end up. If i find the barrel too sensitive with the tuner i might cut it to 16" from the current i think 22 or 24"