Thread: 270 in a 20in barrel or 308 in 18in barrel

@Vietnamcam and @stagstalker Here's you two giving a thumbs up to someone wanting to shoot deer out to 500 with a short barreled 308, but not what you use yourselves is it ?, rich pricks with the latest in longrange deer slaying equipment being 6.5 prc and 7saum ! If arrows and 223's do the trick, why the Prc and Saum ?
Back in 1940 or somewhere there Townsend Whelan wrote that the minimum energy to humanly kill a deer ( Doe a deer a White tail deer ) was 1000 foot pounds of energy. That was with a 3030. Pennsylvania White tails are small deer like our fallow, not like Reds. Whelan thought 2000 for an Elk and a red stag is harder to kill than an elk.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

Easy on. Never said it was the best option. Definitely appreciate being called a “rich prick”.

I simply acknowledge that there’s more to it then numbers in the form of energy.

OK I will bite.
IF you can launch the 165 at 2700fps you will have 1414ftlbs at 400 and 1190 at 500
a 150 launched at2800 is plurry near identicle figures

now a .4515 calibre 240grn projectile leaving muzzle at 900fps has 432ftlbs energy AT MUZZLE....412ftlbs at 25 yards
even launched at 1600fps it only just makes ..oops nope it doesnt it only has1364ftlbs at muzzle and 1191 at 25yards.

the mighty .270w
if you launch a 140grn at 3000fps(which many claim to do)has 1545ftlbs at 400 and1312ftlbs at 500 yards.
if you launch a 150grn at 2800fps....................................has 1450ftlbs '' " " 1235 " " " "

so the factory 145grn superpreformance will more than likely sit in the middle

best you stop using the .44 magnum if you BELIEVE its unethical......

stones,glasshouses etc etc etc

AND FWIW in my humble opinion,if you going to be shooting past 350ish yards you will/should be using a rangefinder so will more than likely be doing lots of checking and double checking etc etc.... so putting projectile in correct place SHOULD be easier than my....ummm yip that looks to be under 350yards,getting out there though,best be aiming high on the shoulder..BOOM,whack,trit trot trit trot,wobble wobble flop......

@Moa Hunter cheers for calling me a rich prick also might be half right.

I also have a problem with people using energy numbers to calculate how far they can shoot animals.
Because the energy is largely irrelevant.
What is relevant is if the impact not muzzle velocity is enough for the projectile to have good terminal effect.

I also have a short 308 and wouldn't hesitate to shoot a big red at 500y with it if the shot was on. But I wouldn't be using a Barnes 130ttsx because it's just not a suitable projectile for that.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

OK I will bite.
IF you can launch the 165 at 2700fps you will have 1414ftlbs at 400 and 1190 at 500
a 150 launched at2800 is plurry near identicle figures

now a .4515 calibre 240grn projectile leaving muzzle at 900fps has 432ftlbs energy AT MUZZLE....412ftlbs at 25 yards
even launched at 1600fps it only just makes ..oops nope it doesnt it only has1364ftlbs at muzzle and 1191 at 25yards.

the mighty .270w
if you launch a 140grn at 3000fps(which many claim to do)has 1545ftlbs at 400 and1312ftlbs at 500 yards.
if you launch a 150grn at 2800fps....................................has 1450ftlbs '' " " 1235 " " " "

so the factory 145grn superpreformance will more than likely sit in the middle

best you stop using the .44 magnum if you BELIEVE its unethical......

stones,glasshouses etc etc etc

So you have confirmed my point ( unstated till now) that the 308 and 270 are only 400 metre guns using the best scenario of full length barrel and optimum load. They are not 500 metre guns.
Further than that and it needs a step up in bullet weight and velocity, to a saum or wsm etc
And whats this 'high shoulder at long range' aiming point ? Worst place to shoot them when velocity is dropping off unless you mean the spine like a high base of neck shot, even that is a fluke

Originally Posted by veitnamcam

@Moa Hunter cheers for calling me a rich prick also might be half right.

I also have a problem with people using energy numbers to calculate how far they can shoot animals.
Because the energy is largely irrelevant.
What is relevant is if the impact not muzzle velocity is enough for the projectile to have good terminal effect.

I also have a short 308 and wouldn't hesitate to shoot a big red at 500y with it if the shot was on. But I wouldn't be using a Barnes 130ttsx because it's just not a suitable projectile for that.

I know what I'll call you and stagstalker now, 'Dedicated followers of fashion'. https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...KBHSFLow_lYUnB But on a serious note, for every story of successful long range 308, 270, 243, 7mo8 there are plenty of 'It looked like a hit but we searched for ages and couldnt find blood so it must have been a miss' stories. @stug put up a link to a South African ( not a good day to raise this I concede) safari park operator discussing ethical shooting. His conclusion was that the Heart was the best aiming point because the animal was always secured and could only run a certain distance before expiring

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

So you have confirmed my point ( unstated till now) that the 308 and 270 are only 400 metre guns using the best scenario of full length barrel and optimum load. They are not 500 metre guns.
Further than that and it needs a step up in bullet weight and velocity, to a saum or wsm etc
And whats this 'high shoulder at long range' aiming point ? Worst place to shoot them when velocity is dropping off unless you mean the spine like a high base of neck shot, even that is a fluke

so you have sold the 44 magnum then???? stones/glass houses

aiming high on shoulder...NOT FOR high shoulder allows bullet to drop into chest destroying lungs etc the ideal shot placement under 350 yards to anchor animal...

no I havent confirmed your bias at all...far from it.....

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

and really who gave you the authority to say this is right or wrong...its a case of the pot calling kettle black when you use ANY load thats subsonic...have another look at the .44 magnum figures....

a heart shot animal can run up to 100 yards before expiring....even a hare hit with a .22lr can go 50-75 yards thus hit...and if you did the maths that like hitting a deer with half a pound of lead......

@Moa Hunter I wasn't really asking for help with being able to shoot those distances. Was after input in the merritt between the two calibres in short barrel rifles. Until this year I had never bothered with rifles under 22in, a change in thought lead me too this.
I had previously owned a 308 before my 300 and happily took animals with the 308 to 450mtrs. I can't be bothered with magnum rifles at the moment hence why I wanted input. And yes I am proficient with walking, closing distances is and always has been my preferred method. I just wanted to move away from an almost 10lb rifle. Looks like my new set up if I stay with the Bergara will be around 3.7-3.8kgs. So I have achieved that. Not as light as the tikkas but I like the feel more in both action and stock.

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so you have sold the 44 magnum then???? stones/glass houses

aiming high on shoulder...NOT FOR high shoulder allows bullet to drop into chest destroying lungs etc the ideal shot placement under 350 yards to anchor animal...

no I havent confirmed your bias at all...far from it.....

Would you like to buy it ? Open to offers.

Aiming for the shoulder at long range 'allows the bullet to drop into the leg' resulting in a wounded lost suffering animal

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and really who gave you the authority to say this is right or wrong...its a case of the pot calling kettle black when you use ANY load thats subsonic...have another look at the .44 magnum figures....

For hunting in Europe - where our Red deer come from, the 'Minimum' impact energy is 2000 joules impact energy. This is 1475 foot pounds

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@Vietnamcam and @stagstalker Here's you two giving a thumbs up to someone wanting to shoot deer out to 500 with a short barreled 308, but not what you use yourselves is it ?, rich pricks with the latest in longrange deer slaying equipment being 6.5 prc and 7saum ! If arrows and 223's do the trick, why the Prc and Saum ?
Back in 1940 or somewhere there Townsend Whelan wrote that the minimum energy to humanly kill a deer ( Doe a deer a White tail deer ) was 1000 foot pounds of energy. That was with a 3030. Pennsylvania White tails are small deer like our fallow, not like Reds. Whelan thought 2000 for an Elk and a red stag is harder to kill than an elk.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

Who told you that?????

Slow down fellas, microwave hasn't got my popcorn ready yet.........

I too have a strong opinion, but with a mouth full of popcorn I'll keep in to myself for now!