270 in a 20in barrel or 308 in 18in barrel

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Originally Posted by 300wsm for life

Thanks all for the help. Settled on a Bergara extreme hunter in 308. Slightly heavier than the tikka but to me they feel nicer. Still lighter than my 300wsm which came in at 9.9lbs. Will hopefully be nice to carry and shoot. Will just need to sort a suppressor and later on some components to reload. @veitnamcam where you talking about the premier 2.0?

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Yep

I am intrigued to know what loads will be used for either cartridge that will deliver enough energy at 500 mtrs.
A Pennsylvania Whitetail may need a minimum 1000 fp of energy from a 3030 and be inside 170 yards as prescribed by Townsend Whelan but a decent red is a whole different matter, 1500 foot pounds and 2200 feet per second at impact.

Energy doesn't kill things projectiles do. Just need the right type for the velocity and put it in the right place.
Otherwise the 223 would never kill anything.

Attachment 203202
give it a crack see how it works out. might be usefull for opening day as well.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Energy doesn't kill things projectiles do. Just need the right type for the velocity and put it in the right place.
Otherwise the 223 would never kill anything.

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Nor would arrow’s

@Vietnamcam and @stagstalker Here's you two giving a thumbs up to someone wanting to shoot deer out to 500 with a short barreled 308, but not what you use yourselves is it ?, rich pricks with the latest in longrange deer slaying equipment being 6.5 prc and 7saum ! :PIf arrows and 223's do the trick, why the Prc and Saum ?
Back in 1940 or somewhere there Townsend Whelan wrote that the minimum energy to humanly kill a deer ( Doe a deer a White tail deer ) was 1000 foot pounds of energy. That was with a 3030. Pennsylvania White tails are small deer like our fallow, not like Reds. Whelan thought 2000 for an Elk and a red stag is harder to kill than an elk.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

Easy on. Never said it was the best option. Definitely appreciate being called a “rich prick”.

I simply acknowledge that there’s more to it then numbers in the form of energy.

OK I will bite.
IF you can launch the 165 at 2700fps you will have 1414ftlbs at 400 and 1190 at 500
a 150 launched at2800 is plurry near identicle figures

now a .4515 calibre 240grn projectile leaving muzzle at 900fps has 432ftlbs energy AT MUZZLE....412ftlbs at 25 yards
even launched at 1600fps it only just makes ..oops nope it doesnt it only has1364ftlbs at muzzle and 1191 at 25yards.

the mighty .270w
if you launch a 140grn at 3000fps(which many claim to do)has 1545ftlbs at 400 and1312ftlbs at 500 yards.
if you launch a 150grn at 2800fps....................................has 1450ftlbs '' " " 1235 " " " "

so the factory 145grn superpreformance will more than likely sit in the middle

best you stop using the .44 magnum if you BELIEVE its unethical......

stones,glasshouses etc etc etc

AND FWIW in my humble opinion,if you going to be shooting past 350ish yards you will/should be using a rangefinder so will more than likely be doing lots of checking and double checking etc etc.... so putting projectile in correct place SHOULD be easier than my....ummm yip that looks to be under 350yards,getting out there though,best be aiming high on the shoulder..BOOM,whack,trit trot trit trot,wobble wobble flop......

@Moa Hunter cheers for calling me a rich prick also:thumbsup: might be half right.

I also have a problem with people using energy numbers to calculate how far they can shoot animals.
Because the energy is largely irrelevant.
What is relevant is if the impact not muzzle velocity is enough for the projectile to have good terminal effect.

I also have a short 308 and wouldn't hesitate to shoot a big red at 500y with it if the shot was on. But I wouldn't be using a Barnes 130ttsx because it's just not a suitable projectile for that.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

OK I will bite.
IF you can launch the 165 at 2700fps you will have 1414ftlbs at 400 and 1190 at 500
a 150 launched at2800 is plurry near identicle figures

now a .4515 calibre 240grn projectile leaving muzzle at 900fps has 432ftlbs energy AT MUZZLE....412ftlbs at 25 yards
even launched at 1600fps it only just makes ..oops nope it doesnt it only has1364ftlbs at muzzle and 1191 at 25yards.

the mighty .270w
if you launch a 140grn at 3000fps(which many claim to do)has 1545ftlbs at 400 and1312ftlbs at 500 yards.
if you launch a 150grn at 2800fps....................................has 1450ftlbs '' " " 1235 " " " "

so the factory 145grn superpreformance will more than likely sit in the middle

best you stop using the .44 magnum if you BELIEVE its unethical......

stones,glasshouses etc etc etc

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So you have confirmed my point ( unstated till now) that the 308 and 270 are only 400 metre guns using the best scenario of full length barrel and optimum load. They are not 500 metre guns.
Further than that and it needs a step up in bullet weight and velocity, to a saum or wsm etc
And whats this 'high shoulder at long range' aiming point ? Worst place to shoot them when velocity is dropping off unless you mean the spine like a high base of neck shot, even that is a fluke

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

@Moa Hunter cheers for calling me a rich prick also:thumbsup: might be half right.

I also have a problem with people using energy numbers to calculate how far they can shoot animals.
Because the energy is largely irrelevant.
What is relevant is if the impact not muzzle velocity is enough for the projectile to have good terminal effect.

I also have a short 308 and wouldn't hesitate to shoot a big red at 500y with it if the shot was on. But I wouldn't be using a Barnes 130ttsx because it's just not a suitable projectile for that.

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I know what I'll call you and stagstalker now, 'Dedicated followers of fashion'. https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...KBHSFLow_lYUnB But on a serious note, for every story of successful long range 308, 270, 243, 7mo8 there are plenty of 'It looked like a hit but we searched for ages and couldnt find blood so it must have been a miss' stories. @stug put up a link to a South African ( not a good day to raise this I concede) safari park operator discussing ethical shooting. His conclusion was that the Heart was the best aiming point because the animal was always secured and could only run a certain distance before expiring

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

So you have confirmed my point ( unstated till now) that the 308 and 270 are only 400 metre guns using the best scenario of full length barrel and optimum load. They are not 500 metre guns.
Further than that and it needs a step up in bullet weight and velocity, to a saum or wsm etc
And whats this 'high shoulder at long range' aiming point ? Worst place to shoot them when velocity is dropping off unless you mean the spine like a high base of neck shot, even that is a fluke

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so you have sold the 44 magnum then???? stones/glass houses

aiming high on shoulder...NOT FOR high shoulder allows bullet to drop into chest destroying lungs etc the ideal shot placement under 350 yards to anchor animal...

no I havent confirmed your bias at all...far from it.....

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

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and really who gave you the authority to say this is right or wrong...its a case of the pot calling kettle black when you use ANY load thats subsonic...have another look at the .44 magnum figures....

a heart shot animal can run up to 100 yards before expiring....even a hare hit with a .22lr can go 50-75 yards thus hit...and if you did the maths that like hitting a deer with half a pound of lead......

@Moa Hunter I wasn't really asking for help with being able to shoot those distances. Was after input in the merritt between the two calibres in short barrel rifles. Until this year I had never bothered with rifles under 22in, a change in thought lead me too this.
I had previously owned a 308 before my 300 and happily took animals with the 308 to 450mtrs. I can't be bothered with magnum rifles at the moment hence why I wanted input. And yes I am proficient with walking, closing distances is and always has been my preferred method. I just wanted to move away from an almost 10lb rifle. Looks like my new set up if I stay with the Bergara will be around 3.7-3.8kgs. So I have achieved that. Not as light as the tikkas but I like the feel more in both action and stock.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

so you have sold the 44 magnum then???? stones/glass houses

aiming high on shoulder...NOT FOR high shoulder allows bullet to drop into chest destroying lungs etc the ideal shot placement under 350 yards to anchor animal...

no I havent confirmed your bias at all...far from it.....

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Would you like to buy it ? Open to offers.

Aiming for the shoulder at long range 'allows the bullet to drop into the leg' resulting in a wounded lost suffering animal

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

and really who gave you the authority to say this is right or wrong...its a case of the pot calling kettle black when you use ANY load thats subsonic...have another look at the .44 magnum figures....

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For hunting in Europe - where our Red deer come from, the 'Minimum' impact energy is 2000 joules impact energy. This is 1475 foot pounds

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@Vietnamcam and @stagstalker Here's you two giving a thumbs up to someone wanting to shoot deer out to 500 with a short barreled 308, but not what you use yourselves is it ?, rich pricks with the latest in longrange deer slaying equipment being 6.5 prc and 7saum ! :PIf arrows and 223's do the trick, why the Prc and Saum ?
Back in 1940 or somewhere there Townsend Whelan wrote that the minimum energy to humanly kill a deer ( Doe a deer a White tail deer ) was 1000 foot pounds of energy. That was with a 3030. Pennsylvania White tails are small deer like our fallow, not like Reds. Whelan thought 2000 for an Elk and a red stag is harder to kill than an elk.
It does not sit well with me when this 1000 fpe energy is used to calculate how far a given load can be used to shoot red deer.
If someone wants to shoot deer at 500mtrs they should be using 1500 fpe and 2200 fps impact velocity as minimums, they will probably end up with something like a 7Saum, 7 Rem Mag, 300 WSM etc

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Who told you that?????

Slow down fellas, microwave hasn't got my popcorn ready yet.........

I too have a strong opinion, but with a mouth full of popcorn I'll keep in to myself for now!

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Originally Posted by Shearer

Who told you that?????

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It is well known in the Safari Park industry, with which I am involved. As far back as we want to go with the Fiordland herd, the bulls are not recorded as moving far after being shot. Phillip Holden remarked on it

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Originally Posted by Shearer

Who told you that?????

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Philip Holden went on record saying they were easier to kill...which if you look at it logically is correct....very similar resistance for a projectile to GET INTO vitals and those vitals are a good 20% bigger....

A big bull Elk is twice the animal a Red stag is, that's why Americans prefer 300 and 338 magnums to hunt them. Not 243s like Holden used.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

For hunting in Europe - where our Red deer come from, the 'Minimum' impact energy is 2000 joules impact energy. This is 1475 foot pounds

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but we dont wear twead coats......and do you seriously believe the rules that say crap like a .243w in minimum for roe deer are the norm????
if your thinking that aiming for the biggest vital bit isnt a good idea at any given range...well you must be some kind on demigod with a heat seeking missile if you are smacking deer in the atlas joint with a .44 magnum using subsonic loads at 500 yards(yes I know your not dumb enough to attempt that)

and NO I am not offering to buy your .44 magnum...I was pointing out that you are saying these guys are unethical because they using less than 1500ftlbs of energy when you yourself are doing the same thing..pot kettle black...glasshouses n stones.

Im 50 years old...for most of my lifetime,the hilar shot has been considered ideal on red deer..... for me if I believe the range is a tad on long side...which for me is 300-350 yards,I will place my X hair high on shoulder to allow my projectile to drop that 6-8" into my desired point of impact.taking out one if not both shoulders and the vitals,slightly too far back,good lung hit in the crease,slightly too far forward a good hillar shot or even neck... slightly high,possible spine and top of lungs,slightly low,heart.... much too low is leg..... quickly reload and be prepared to shoot again ALWAYS....

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Originally Posted by Shearer

A big bull Elk is twice the animal a Red stag is, that's why Americans prefer 300 and 338 magnums to hunt them. Not 243s like Holden used.

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correct,but its vitals are still bigger...and Holden ,being a culler was more likely to be shooting mostly hinds,so he was correct.....and somehow I dont think the man was a barrel stretcher as such.... one thing is for sure ,he could shoot.
there are 3-4 hunter/culler authors who used the .243 more of less exclusively and they were all fans off 100grn loads and shoulder shooting..... they killed far more animals than I will likely ever see,so I fail to see reason to doubt thier experience.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I know what I'll call you and stagstalker now, 'Dedicated followers of fashion'. https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rc...KBHSFLow_lYUnB But on a serious note, for every story of successful long range 308, 270, 243, 7mo8 there are plenty of 'It looked like a hit but we searched for ages and couldnt find blood so it must have been a miss' stories. @stug put up a link to a South African ( not a good day to raise this I concede) safari park operator discussing ethical shooting. His conclusion was that the Heart was the best aiming point because the animal was always secured and could only run a certain distance before expiring

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That's the funnyest shit I've read all week! :thumbsup::D:D:D:D:D

Far out is this still going....Here is me thinking .308 had it won hands down on the first page [emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I'm running some test loads on a Sako 308 for a mate, my 270 makes me store it in the other safe

I can miss just as well with both at 50 yards......
and ...shock horror..there is even a EBRG sitting in my cabinet under secure lock n key...man you should hear the arguments that go on in there during the wee small hours!!

Man there is some rubbish on this thread. You will be very happy with your 308 mate. If you want to shoot a bit further, lets say for argument sake 500m..., 168eldm/amax/tmk with a good dose of 2208 will see you right

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Originally Posted by superdiver

Man there is some rubbish on this thread. You will be very happy with your 308 mate. If you want to shoot a bit further, lets say for argument sake 500m..., 168eldm/amax/tmk with a good dose of 2208 will see you right

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But here you are .......:P oops,so am I.....

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Originally Posted by 257weatherby

But here you are .......:P oops,so am I.....

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I was so triggered I was baited into posting lol

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@stug put up a link to a South African ( not a good day to raise this I concede) safari park operator discussing ethical shooting. His conclusion was that the Heart was the best aiming point because the animal was always secured and could only run a certain distance before expiring

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Interesting conclusion from the Saffa. Personally, of all the common aim points, a heart shot is about my least favoured as there’s a fair chance the animal will run a considerable distance despite being dead on it’s feet, and might be difficult to find (or straight out lost). You don’t have that problem if you hit them in the scapula or hilar zone

But probably not too much of an issue on the Highveld when you have expert trackers at your disposal, and less cover to lose animals in relative to what we have in parts of our country

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Originally Posted by Shearer

A big bull Elk is twice the animal a Red stag is, that's why Americans prefer 300 and 338 magnums to hunt them. Not 243s like Holden used.

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@Shearer I have been thinking about why Elk are easier to knock over than Reds. When I cut up an Elk bull it is easy cutting not like a Red stag that is gristle and tough muscle. A slaughter and cooking trial was done in ChCh with female Elk / Waps ages from 1yr to 9yrs. The 9yr cow elk was as tender as the 1yr. Elk are easier to penetrate than Reds and have less connective tissue, it seems that they are more susceptible to shock.

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Originally Posted by 7.62

Interesting conclusion from the Saffa. Personally, of all the common aim points, a heart shot is about my least favoured as there’s a fair chance the animal will run a considerable distance despite being dead on it’s feet, and might be difficult to find (or straight out lost). You don’t have that problem if you hit them in the scapula or hilar zone

But probably not too much of an issue on the Highveld when you have expert trackers at your disposal, and less cover to lose animals in relative to what we have in parts of our country

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I agree with you on hits to Hilar. I have seen these 'Centre shoulder, High shoulder' shots go wrong. Animals hit in the top of the lungs or top of the shoulder broken. I was surprised by the Saffa's conclusion until I thought about it. A shot in the heart is a dead animal that will always die humanely within 50 - 80 metres.

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Originally Posted by 300wsm for life

@Moa Hunter I wasn't really asking for help with being able to shoot those distances. Was after input in the merritt between the two calibres in short barrel rifles. Until this year I had never bothered with rifles under 22in, a change in thought lead me too this.
I had previously owned a 308 before my 300 and happily took animals with the 308 to 450mtrs. I can't be bothered with magnum rifles at the moment hence why I wanted input. And yes I am proficient with walking, closing distances is and always has been my preferred method. I just wanted to move away from an almost 10lb rifle. Looks like my new set up if I stay with the Bergara will be around 3.7-3.8kgs. So I have achieved that. Not as light as the tikkas but I like the feel more in both action and stock.

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Not wanting to have a go at you personally, I apologise as it does appear that way. What concerns me is that because we have no formal hunting and ethics training in NZ, we have a situation now where young or new hunters can read these threads and conclude that the short barreled bush pig they just bought on TM is 500 mtr capable. It might be in experienced hands, in the right situation where the animal is in open country that allows a follow up shot, can be watched to see where it moves to after the shot but not where it can move to cover and be lost.

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

For hunting in Europe - where our Red deer come from, the 'Minimum' impact energy is 2000 joules impact energy. This is 1475 foot pounds

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Attachment 203327
This is 145eldx 270 from 22inch barrel Tikka, Labrador for velocity. Handloads, but not hot @3030fps. Factory 145's, although accurate are very slow around 2820fps from same rifle.

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Those weights are a little misleading as the mountain has 4 more inches of barrel that you will no doubt be cutting off.
But yes it is a lot of money for the weight saving but there are other advantages to the different action and upgraded trigger.
I will get a weight of mine docked to 16" when I am home.

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Docked to 16", dpt sup, tally rings, vx3 hd and I replaced the steel bottom metal with an alloy aftermarket.
Attachment 203656

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Originally Posted by 300wsm for life

@Moa Hunter I wasn't really asking for help with being able to shoot those distances. Was after input in the merritt between the two calibres in short barrel rifles. Until this year I had never bothered with rifles under 22in, a change in thought lead me too this.
I had previously owned a 308 before my 300 and happily took animals with the 308 to 450mtrs. I can't be bothered with magnum rifles at the moment hence why I wanted input. And yes I am proficient with walking, closing distances is and always has been my preferred method. I just wanted to move away from an almost 10lb rifle. Looks like my new set up if I stay with the Bergara will be around 3.7-3.8kgs. So I have achieved that. Not as light as the tikkas but I like the feel more in both action and stock.

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@300wsm for life what scope are you going to use ?

I've got an extreme hunter in 308 they are a nice rifle, nice action as you say.

@308mate I will be using the V4 4-16x44 I took off my 300. Makes the whole package a little heavier than I wanted but it will be sweet. Can always change later.