308 Twist rates v projectile weights ?

Much more knowledge on here than I have so I thought I would put the question out.

I am looking at getting one of the Bergara single shot take down rifles in 308 win.
They basically come in two options.
1: 20 inch barrel with a 1/12 twist rate...or
2: 16.5 inch barrel with a 1/8 twist.

Either option will get suppressed with the 20 inch version probably chopped to 17 - 18 inchs as I want to take advantage of the take down feature and be able to fit it all in a backpack and only assemble it once required.

I know the 1.8 will allow for heavier pills but will it stabilise pills down to 125gr ?

Any advantages and disadvantages please let me know so I can make an informed decision on which version to get ....

Cheers Viper

16" 1:12 twist sends 200gn cast sideways - lol

I have the 16.5" version, I haven't tried 125gr but it's fine with 150s.

The 16.5 doesn't have open sights, but if you chop the 20 I guess it won't either!

it will work fine..the worst it will do is make them more fragile as they will be spinning faster...but you can slow them down if thats too much of an issue.

I have no issues with a 1:7 12” barrel using 125 gr BT, TMK and SST. So a 1:8 should be fine.

You've got it a bit backwards mate. The faster the twist, the heavier (longer) the bullets it will stabilise. The 1:8 twist is really fast - it'll have no problem at all stabilising 125gr (light, short) projectiles.

Unless you plan on shooting subs, I'd get the 1:12. @flock has one for sale I think. 1:12 will stabilise everything supersonic up to 180gr no problem.

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Originally Posted by Pommy

You've got it a bit backwards mate. The faster the twist, the heavier (longer) the bullets it will stabilise. The 1:8 twist is really fast - it'll have no problem at all stabilising 125gr (light, short) projectiles.

Unless you plan on shooting subs, I'd get the 1:12. @flock has one for sale I think. 1:12 will stabilise everything supersonic up to 180gr no problem.

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Spoke to Flock but we couldn't quite get things to line up so now I have the choice of going for either option. Thanks for your input, I am not interested in playing around with sub sonic loads but 180gr plus might be an option to reach further out .

Whats your plan how far and what animals are you targeting?

I went out to the range this morning for a quick shot before the wind got up to much. Was using my 16” 308win with a 1:11 twist, 168gr A-max first round hit on steel out to 770m. This combo smashes reds very well out to 440m. Could also do this the same with 178gr ELD-m.

Only a couple of inches off centre at 773m 19 degrees downhill in 3m/s wind so 300m and 400m is easy.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f48740a8_c.jpg

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Originally Posted by tikka

Whats your plan how far and what animals are you targeting?

I went out to the range this morning for a quick shot before the wind got up to much. Was using my 16” 308win with a 1:11 twist, 168gr A-max first round hit on steel out to 770m. This combo smashes reds very well out to 440m. Could also do this the same with 178gr ELD-m.

Only a couple of inches off centre at 773m 19 degrees downhill in 3m/s wind so 300m and 400m is easy.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f48740a8_c.jpg

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thats bloody good going!

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Originally Posted by tikka

Whats your plan how far and what animals are you targeting?

I went out to the range this morning for a quick shot before the wind got up to much. Was using my 16” 308win with a 1:11 twist, 168gr A-max first round hit on steel out to 770m. This combo smashes reds very well out to 440m. Could also do this the same with 178gr ELD-m.

Only a couple of inches off centre at 773m 19 degrees downhill in 3m/s wind so 300m and 400m is easy.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f48740a8_c.jpg

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@tikka , that's awesome mate, I won't or intend to shoot over 450 and hopefully mostly under that.
So the Golden question is if you could start from scratch would you go for the 1.8 or 1.12 twist ?

1;12 because it wont be as hard on soft projectiles going fast..... speer is good and cheap.

I would still go with the 16' 1:8 I bought for shooting suppressed bush hunting with the dog.
But I also have a 23.5" 1:12

@viper
For my style of hunting which is 80% stalking close on deer with the dog, high round count goat culling and preferably shooting heavy subs with a 300 blackout. The 308win is a stock standard tikka T3 chopped to 16” it has the factory 1:11 twist barrel and would rather have a 1:8 twist solely because I could run both Lehigh Defence subsonics and 168gr + heavy’s for longer range deer and goats across gully’s.

Once the barrel is cooked will rebarrel to 1:8 twist, the other bonus of a factory 1:8 barrel is the resale is easier and more sort after now days if your not into it anymore.

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Originally Posted by tikka

@viper
For my style of hunting which is 80% stalking close on deer with the dog, high round count goat culling and preferably shooting heavy subs with a 300 blackout. The 308win is a stock standard tikka T3 chopped to 16” it has the factory 1:11 twist barrel and would rather have a 1:8 twist solely because I could run both Lehigh Defence subsonics and 168gr + heavy’s for longer range deer and goats across gully’s.

Once the barrel is cooked will rebarrel to 1:8 twist, the other bonus of a factory 1:8 barrel is the resale is easier and more sort after now days if your not into it anymore.

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@tikka , great answer mate, that's gone along way too helping me make a decision.

Go for the 1:12 which will handle 125 -150 grainers well. The heavier bullets are not needed where we are!

surprised someone hasnt said get a .243 instead LOL......

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Originally Posted by gundoc

Go for the 1:12 which will handle 125 -150 grainers well. The heavier bullets are not needed where we are!

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Ahhh, that's added another level, almost no wrong answer here

⅝

A 1:12" twist will handle bullets from 100 grs to 200 grs as the biggest animals we shoot are Deer bullets from a .308 really don't need to be heavier than 180 grs
you start losing velocity going over that weight, 150 to 165 is all that is needed, Begaras are pretty short I have one in .44 mag 16.5" even with a muzzle forward DPT
suppressor it is still the shortest rifle I own, With a 20" barrel the Begara is still 4 to 7 inch shorter than a bolt action why would you want to give up the velocity advantage
by whacking 3" off it, With 180 grain bullets a 22" barrel is only making 2500fps.

The only reason to go for the faster twists in a 308 barrel is if you think at any point in the future youmight like to try specialist subsonic projectiles like Lehigh and Cutting Edge etc.
Since most hunters find the cost of these far too butt puckering there is not much point in a faster twist for them. Those who want to use them or do use them already know whats needed to do so.
The 16 inch Bergaras are very portable. I have one.
:thumbsup: if someone made a bolt action 308 with 1-8 twist 20 inch barrel everyone would be happy.

The 3006 standard twist is 1:10 and the 308 1:12 the 06 can handle 250 grain projectiles and they are still loaded for big game overseas. Yet both seem best with the 150 to 175 grain range.
People get twisted over twist rate but the standard twist does 99.9% of everything.
Also it's projectile speed and length more than weight that determines if it will stableise or not.

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Originally Posted by mikee

The only reason to go for the faster twists in a 308 barrel is if you think at any point in the future youmight like to try specialist subsonic projectiles like Lehigh and Cutting Edge etc.
Since most hunters find the cost of these far too butt puckering there is not much point in a faster twist for them. Those who want to use them or do use them already know whats needed to do so.
The 16 inch Bergaras are very portable. I have one.
:thumbsup: if someone made a bolt action 308 with 1-8 twist 20 inch barrel everyone would be happy.

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and most folks who do try subsonics,realise the awesome 151s Robert makes do just about as good of job at fraction of the price and will stabalise in just about anything..... then after using subs for a bit...go back to supers and keep the subs for plinking and finishing off rounds and are happy LOL.

Ye old 308 case makes it's best performance in short barrels from heavier pills, especially for down range distances but for what you're planning I wouldn't be to worried, both will work.

If you are running a super short barrel, then projectile choice is important, for low speed - soft nose stuff is the way to go. I tried 155g A-maxes in my 30 ARX & it was super accurate but not a killer :(

Thanks for all the great advice to everyone who contributed.
I got down to H&F yesterday and got my hands on the 16.5 inch 308 version. Really cool little rifle, not super light but a lot lighter than I am used to. Shoulders well and fits nicely.
I will order the 1.12 20 inch version and get it cut back 2-3 inches from there.
Scope will be next which will be interesting as I want it to be mid size , not to bulky and capped turrets. Probably something with a ballistic reticle.

you know its not a huge expense to get it cut and rethreaded???...you COULD run with it full length for a bit then cut shorter if it really feels needed....I used to run really short barrels but have got past it now...even in thick bush the longer barrel isnt huge issue and it makes me slow down...never a bad thing.
look forward to seeing how you get on with rifle,whichever way you decide to go.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

you know its not a huge expense to get it cut and rethreaded???...you COULD run with it full length for a bit then cut shorter if it really feels needed....I used to run really short barrels but have got past it now...even in thick bush the longer barrel isnt huge issue and it makes me slow down...never a bad thing.
look forward to seeing how you get on with rifle,whichever way you decide to go.

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Yep I agree, but this project is all about fitting inside a pack. I want it out of sight, assembled when needed then disassembled. Keep both hands free for walking and easy transportation on a dirt bike or similar.

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Originally Posted by viper

Yep I agree, but this project is all about fitting inside a pack. I want it out of sight, assembled when needed then disassembled. Keep both hands free for walking and easy transportation on a dirt bike or similar.

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Get the short one then, the faster twist is more versatile anyway.

I can report mine shot very well this morning with a low power variable scope and 168gn ELDms generally small groups round the inch mark. Not so good with the Sako Factory loads (150gn soft points) more Minute of 1/2 an A4 page but still good enough for most things.
No suppressor yet as the Alok adapter needs fitting properly by gunsmith or I need a different suppresor so the thing is Loud Loud Loud.
Over all I really like it although reloading in hurry may be challenging.
Great value for money although I over capitalised on mine with the optics :D :D

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Originally Posted by veitnamcam

Get the short one then, the faster twist is more versatile anyway.

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This has been an interesting thread and there seems to be no wrong answer here. When Gundoc suggests 1.12 and Tikka is binging steel with a short barrel 1.11 at 750 plus the 1.12 seems to make sense. I have zero interest in subsonic . I like the 150 to 180 gr projectiles, good velocity and energy that get the best from the 308.

May I suggest if buying new then if you buy a 16 inch model you will not need to send it to be shortened, the warrenty will remain intact and you will be shooting in no time.
1-8 will still work with 125gn bullets. Put the $$ you save not needing it shortened into a suppressor, you will need it if you like your hearing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikee

May I suggest if buying new then if you buy a 16 inch model you will not need to send it to be shortened, the warrenty will remain intact and you will be shooting in no time.
1-8 will still work with 125gn bullets. Put the $$ you save not needing it shortened into a suppressor, you will need it if you like your hearing.

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Hi Mike, I already have a 30 cal dpt suppressor that swaps between my current 308 and 223, I will be using that again.
The short 16.5 apparently is a bit of a mongrel to supress without a particular suppressor made for it or you need to alter the foregrip.
I am lucky to have a mate down the road who is a epic gunsmith and does my work . The beauty of the 20 inch barely is I can trim it back to desired length.
No problem with reloading Mikee, just make the first one stick.

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Originally Posted by mikee

Over all I really like it although reloading in hurry may be challenging.

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One tip - yanking frantically on the trigger (instead of the guard lever) does not open the action, no matter how many times you do it...thankfully I learnt this playing at home and not while hunting!

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Originally Posted by Cigar

One tip - yanking frantically on the trigger (instead of the guard lever) does not open the action, no matter how many times you do it...thankfully I learnt this playing at home and not while hunting!

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Yes Yes a mate with a cellphone camera in a stressful situation with operators brainfart moment like you describe surely may end up somewhere like .................................................. .................................here !!

Looking at the factory (Winchester supersuppressed) ammo, 308 168gr and 300 BLK 200 gr are both rated at 1060 fps. Presumably, BLK typically have faster twist barrels and they've limited the bullet weight in the 308.

I wonder how much you can expect of the 308 subs ? They only claim 420 ft.lb at the muzzle. That's 4x the energy of a 22LR subsonic. Twice the energy of a 17HMR. It's not a 308 class cartridge made quiet; it's a rimfire class cartridge with a beefed up bullet.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

Looking at the factory (Winchester supersuppressed) ammo, 308 168gr and 300 BLK 200 gr are both rated at 1060 fps. Presumably, BLK typically have faster twist barrels and they've limited the bullet weight in the 308.

I wonder how much you can expect of the 308 subs ? They only claim 420 ft.lb at the muzzle. That's 4x the energy of a 22LR subsonic. Twice the energy of a 17HMR. It's not a 308 class cartridge made quiet; it's a rimfire class cartridge with a beefed up bullet.

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short answer to that...sweet fark all
unless you hit dead on the central nervous system you will have a runner.even if you smack it through boiler room it will still run until bleeds out,which will be slower than normal...think bow hunting slowly.... you have next to zero shock on impact,a near miss of vitals is a near miss,no fragmentation or 2ndary bits of bone flying into important bits...but if your a deadeye dick and dial it correctly and shoot it head neck......Im not that good.

Running 30cal subsonics on body shot deer your better off with the purpose built subsonic projectile like Lehigh or Maker bullet. Unfortunately reloading is the road you can go in NZ as I don’t know anyone the stock factory ammo with these bullets.
A 450BM or 45/70 would be a better bet for factory subs in this country.