Thread: Advice about an 1892 Winchester

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
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You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
-
You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

have fun with that - would love to take something like that to my meat block and tip a fallow over with it

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

I think I enjoyed the black powder more than anything. All of my red deer with .44-40 were black powder. (And they died just as quickly as if I'd shot them with a .270)

But I shot a lot of smokeless as well. Happy with either, but I enjoyed the black powder shooting, and reloading BP is quite different too. Alloys and lube you have to consider. Whether to size cases or not, wads or grease cookies, (I even tried bits of cigarette paper over the primers to tone them down...)

THe most accurate load I had for the .44-40 rifles ( we had three) was a full load of black powder, but on top of a tiny little bit of smokeless as a primer. THis was something I learnt from old books from the early 1900's, and this kind of duplex loading was common for target rifles.
This load with either good cast bullets of a certain alloy - or with jacketed bullets, would shoot 1.0 - 1.5 inch five shot groups with each rifle. This is from old open sighted lever action carbines that were not intended when designed to shoot better than 4 inch groups.