Thread: Advice about an 1892 Winchester

Hey guys,

I was fortunate enough to be gifted a Winchester 1892 chambered in .44 WCF. I’m pretty sure it’s a 20” saddle carbine and it was made in 1911 - looked that up on the internet.

Apparently it has been using black powder loads, and I was given a small bag of ammo with it- Kynoch head stamped. This old girl was in use previously and I’m keen to continue that. I don’t know much about these old lever guns, but apparently cast bullets are the way to go. I guess I’m reaching out to anyone that can advise me of how to load and run this vintage rifle. I load for bottleneck cartridges so should be able to transition to the 44-40 ok.

Greetings @Hunter_Nick,
I don't have a .44 WCF but have read enough to understand that they are a whole new worm hole to go down. I suggest that you try and find someone who loads for them to help as almost everything seems to be non standard from weak cases to odd size projectiles and much much more. It is a lovely rifle and I am green with envy.
Regards Grandpamac.

I had access to one years ago,patterned like a shotgun at 30m,nice to shoot though.

Dies, .427" lead projectiles (NOT .429" as in other .44's), and cases are all fairly readily available. The M92 is made strong enough to use with smokeless loads. You are correct with the Saddle Carbine identification, and it was the most popular style in NZ. The .44/40 is easy to load for if you use the correct projectiles (.429"s cause the case neck to collapse). They will kill pigs and deer to 100 metres fairly well.

Quite a few Cowboy action shooters use 44 40 so track down one of those weirdos (tongue in cheek, I know a few of them).

Clean it very well and keep it clean.black powder is a shocker for rusting stuff.the 92 action is lovely to use.

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
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You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

I'd stick with cast lead projectiles I don't believe jacketed ones will give you any significant advantage in accuracy or impact.

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
-
You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

have fun with that - would love to take something like that to my meat block and tip a fallow over with it

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

I think I enjoyed the black powder more than anything. All of my red deer with .44-40 were black powder. (And they died just as quickly as if I'd shot them with a .270)

But I shot a lot of smokeless as well. Happy with either, but I enjoyed the black powder shooting, and reloading BP is quite different too. Alloys and lube you have to consider. Whether to size cases or not, wads or grease cookies, (I even tried bits of cigarette paper over the primers to tone them down...)

THe most accurate load I had for the .44-40 rifles ( we had three) was a full load of black powder, but on top of a tiny little bit of smokeless as a primer. THis was something I learnt from old books from the early 1900's, and this kind of duplex loading was common for target rifles.
This load with either good cast bullets of a certain alloy - or with jacketed bullets, would shoot 1.0 - 1.5 inch five shot groups with each rifle. This is from old open sighted lever action carbines that were not intended when designed to shoot better than 4 inch groups.

I enjoyed yr read there JD,interesting read from a none reloader.

Very cool guns and work awesome (good luck finding 44-40 brass at the moment sadly though)
Biggest thing with them is COAL to long they jam and too short they jam
Reliably is top notch if you feed it the right ammo

Just so you’re aware that rifle originally held more than the allowed 10 rounds so might want to double check to make sure that the previous owner got it cindyfied and get it modified if necessary

This one has been modified, I have the certificate for it so all good there.

As an aside, when I was slugging the barrel (which worked out to be .430) I noticed some engraving on the top of the barrel. ‘William H Hazard Auckland’ There’s no doubt where this one was bought from! Thought that was pretty cool.

Nick, yell out if you need some brass, or advice on loading. I think I have a bag of new Starline tucked away safe somewhere for a rainy day, but I have about 600 in circulation through loading and firing so won't need it for a long time.
I can also send you some projectiles already lubed and sized to .429 if you like to get you started.
Been loading and shooting 44-40 in both smokeless and black powder for several thousand rounds now.
If it slugged to .430, that makes it easy as you can use the .429 projectiles which are readily available.

Rambo is right, cartridge length is important with the '92, as it is with the '73 actions. Once you got that sorted though, easy to load. I don't even lube my cases when sizing (for smokeless - I don't size for BP), they're so close to straight walled and so thin they just don't need much force or effort to size. I reckon it's the easiest calibre I load for.