Advice about an 1892 Winchester

Hey guys,
Attachment 246627
I was fortunate enough to be gifted a Winchester 1892 chambered in .44 WCF. I’m pretty sure it’s a 20” saddle carbine and it was made in 1911 - looked that up on the internet.

Apparently it has been using black powder loads, and I was given a small bag of ammo with it- Kynoch head stamped. This old girl was in use previously and I’m keen to continue that. I don’t know much about these old lever guns, but apparently cast bullets are the way to go. I guess I’m reaching out to anyone that can advise me of how to load and run this vintage rifle. I load for bottleneck cartridges so should be able to transition to the 44-40 ok.

Greetings @Hunter_Nick,
I don't have a .44 WCF but have read enough to understand that they are a whole new worm hole to go down. I suggest that you try and find someone who loads for them to help as almost everything seems to be non standard from weak cases to odd size projectiles and much much more. It is a lovely rifle and I am green with envy.
Regards Grandpamac.

I had access to one years ago,patterned like a shotgun at 30m,nice to shoot though.

Dies, .427" lead projectiles (NOT .429" as in other .44's), and cases are all fairly readily available. The M92 is made strong enough to use with smokeless loads. You are correct with the Saddle Carbine identification, and it was the most popular style in NZ. The .44/40 is easy to load for if you use the correct projectiles (.429"s cause the case neck to collapse). They will kill pigs and deer to 100 metres fairly well.

Quite a few Cowboy action shooters use 44 40 so track down one of those weirdos (tongue in cheek, I know a few of them).

Clean it very well and keep it clean.black powder is a shocker for rusting stuff.the 92 action is lovely to use.

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
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You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

I'd stick with cast lead projectiles I don't believe jacketed ones will give you any significant advantage in accuracy or impact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

Black powder is very little problem in a Winchester 92 chambered in .44-40. Just pour some water down the bore after shooting and wipe it out with a couple of patches and then an oiled patch - and your done. Much easier than smokeless. THe cartridge was designed so that fouling didnt get into the action, and it doesnt. Leave the action alone.

Reloading the .44-40 you need some Lee dies, the three die set, and including the Lee crimp die.

The old Winchester 92 bores often had varying bore sizes - ranging from .425 - 433. During the black powder era this was not an issue as black powder behind the pure lead bullets would "bump" any bullet to fit the bore. When smokeless came along and using jacketed bullets they tried to standardise the bore size and I expect your rifle will have a .427 size bore, or close to it.
-
You will need to slug the bore to find out. If you are lucky you will have a .429 -.430 size bore (like the modern Rossi carbines in this caliber) and you will be able to use .44 magnum jacketed bullets. If your bore is .426 - 427 sized you will have to either search for some jacketed bullets of that size (Remington used to make them) or just use lead bullets of the right bore size, (which for smokeless powder with commercial lead bullets made from wheel weights or some other hard alloy, should be one thousandth over sized = .428)

One other way to tell, is to shoot a few modern factory rounds with jacketed bullets (which are .427 sized) and if they shoot all over the place at 50 metres, you will knw you have a larger bore size and can try some .430 .44 magnum bullets. IF they shoot well, then you have the normal sized .44-40 bore...

The trouble with this is that .44-40 factory is ridiculously expensive, and the jacketed projectiles of teh right 427-.428 size are impossible to find nearly. So the solution is to buy commercial cast bullets, or (much better) learn to cast your own.

So, once you find out what bore size yu have, you will know what bullet size to procure, and then you can load up.

The first load you should try is a smokelss load of 26 grains of AR2207. This is a standard load for this cartridge (or 26 grains of Reloader 7) and will get you 1350 fps from a carbine with a 200 grain bullet. With either jacketed or lead bullets.

The other load to use is 36 grains of 3F black powder, with a 200 grain pure lead bullet in an unsized case (or lead with 2 % tin) this will get you 1200 fps. You must use a very soft lube on the bullets used with black powder. Chefade works. Mixed with ten percent beeswax.

The third load for you to try is your 200 grain bullet with 8 .5 grains of AP70N. This is a light load, 1200 fps, very economical, and very accurate.

I have other loads, including duplex loads etc, but this is for the advanced .44 WCF afficionado...

The crimp on the .44-40 is important. With smokeless loads you must crimp so you get a full burn of powder. With black powder you must crimp to hold the bullet on, with the light load yu must crimp so the bullet does not telescope into the case in the tube magazine spring pressure. Crimp it firmly.
(The 26 grains of 2207 will support the bullet so there is no danger of telescoping bullets. This is the standard working load for this cartridge, it will do everything you need a .44-40 to do.)


I see I have made it sound complicated. You can message me whenever you want. Find out what bore size you have first.

(PS From memory .44-40 Kynoch cases are berdan primed)

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Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

have fun with that - would love to take something like that to my meat block and tip a fallow over with it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Brilliant, thanks for all the info. That all makes sense to me. I’ll slug the bore and start piecing it together from there. I’ll be sure to be in touch at some point! There are a number of black powder shooters locally, so I’ll chat to them as well.
@JohnDuxbury what’s your preference in these - smokeless or black powder? The aim is to have some fun, to keep it running and to shoot some game now and again.

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I think I enjoyed the black powder more than anything. All of my red deer with .44-40 were black powder. (And they died just as quickly as if I'd shot them with a .270)

But I shot a lot of smokeless as well. Happy with either, but I enjoyed the black powder shooting, and reloading BP is quite different too. Alloys and lube you have to consider. Whether to size cases or not, wads or grease cookies, (I even tried bits of cigarette paper over the primers to tone them down...)

THe most accurate load I had for the .44-40 rifles ( we had three) was a full load of black powder, but on top of a tiny little bit of smokeless as a primer. THis was something I learnt from old books from the early 1900's, and this kind of duplex loading was common for target rifles.
This load with either good cast bullets of a certain alloy - or with jacketed bullets, would shoot 1.0 - 1.5 inch five shot groups with each rifle. This is from old open sighted lever action carbines that were not intended when designed to shoot better than 4 inch groups.

I enjoyed yr read there JD,interesting read from a none reloader.

Very cool guns and work awesome (good luck finding 44-40 brass at the moment sadly though)
Biggest thing with them is COAL to long they jam and too short they jam
Reliably is top notch if you feed it the right ammo

Just so you’re aware that rifle originally held more than the allowed 10 rounds so might want to double check to make sure that the previous owner got it cindyfied and get it modified if necessary

This one has been modified, I have the certificate for it so all good there.

As an aside, when I was slugging the barrel (which worked out to be .430) I noticed some engraving on the top of the barrel. ‘William H Hazard Auckland’ There’s no doubt where this one was bought from! Thought that was pretty cool.

Nick, yell out if you need some brass, or advice on loading. I think I have a bag of new Starline tucked away safe somewhere for a rainy day, but I have about 600 in circulation through loading and firing so won't need it for a long time.
I can also send you some projectiles already lubed and sized to .429 if you like to get you started.
Been loading and shooting 44-40 in both smokeless and black powder for several thousand rounds now.
If it slugged to .430, that makes it easy as you can use the .429 projectiles which are readily available.

Rambo is right, cartridge length is important with the '92, as it is with the '73 actions. Once you got that sorted though, easy to load. I don't even lube my cases when sizing (for smokeless - I don't size for BP), they're so close to straight walled and so thin they just don't need much force or effort to size. I reckon it's the easiest calibre I load for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

This one has been modified, I have the certificate for it so all good there.

As an aside, when I was slugging the barrel (which worked out to be .430) I noticed some engraving on the top of the barrel. ‘William H Hazard Auckland’ There’s no doubt where this one was bought from! Thought that was pretty cool.

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Greetings, One thing to be aware of. Although the barrel may take a .429 dia projectile the chamber may not take a case with one loaded. I gather this is quite common with black powder era rifles.
GPM.

The OAL length thing is simply not an issue - with 44-40 you have to crimp them, and the bullets have crimp grooves in the right place obviously. You crimp into the crimp groove.

If you decide to take up cast bullet making, then talk to me and there are a couple of bullet designs that are sold by Accurate Molds that are cpies of the original bullets, and with larger lube grooves, since modern black powder is not as good as the powder available in the 19th century, more lube is required to soften the fouling,

But since you rifle has a .430 size barrel load up either a 200 or 240 grain Hornady XTP - either will do - with 26 grains of AR2207. Crimp it hard with a Lee crimp die. Then go and shoot it for us and see how you get on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Makros

Nick, yell out if you need some brass, or advice on loading. I think I have a bag of new Starline tucked away safe somewhere for a rainy day, but I have about 600 in circulation through loading and firing so won't need it for a long time.
I can also send you some projectiles already lubed and sized to .429 if you like to get you started.
Been loading and shooting 44-40 in both smokeless and black powder for several thousand rounds now.
If it slugged to .430, that makes it easy as you can use the .429 projectiles which are readily available.

Rambo is right, cartridge length is important with the '92, as it is with the '73 actions. Once you got that sorted though, easy to load. I don't even lube my cases when sizing (for smokeless - I don't size for BP), they're so close to straight walled and so thin they just don't need much force or effort to size. I reckon it's the easiest calibre I load for.

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Thanks for the offer generous offer @Makros I’ll be in touch once the roar dies down a bit, and I have a bit of time to take stock and look into loading for it. Also got a stock to finish for a mate, so should really address that too!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

The OAL length thing is simply not an issue - with 44-40 you have to crimp them, and the bullets have crimp grooves in the right place obviously. You crimp into the crimp groove.

If you decide to take up cast bullet making, then talk to me and there are a couple of bullet designs that are sold by Accurate Molds that are cpies of the original bullets, and with larger lube grooves, since modern black powder is not as good as the powder available in the 19th century, more lube is required to soften the fouling,

But since you rifle has a .430 size barrel load up either a 200 or 240 grain Hornady XTP - either will do - with 26 grains of AR2207. Crimp it hard with a Lee crimp die. Then go and shoot it for us and see how you get on.

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Perfect, thanks for all the advice! I’ll be sure to let you know how I get on with it, just need to dedicate some time (and purchase some dies, primers, projectiles and powder)

Nice cowboy gun you've got there.
44-40 is a pig of a round to find.
Reloading is cheap and easy however, ive been wanting to find myself a hand loading tool that can do the whole job.
I suggest cast bullets over jacketed ones too. Older winchester barrels were not designed for it, but you would probably get away with it on yours which is made after the turn of the century.

we have been using jacketed projectiles for a very long time.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

we have been using jacketed projectiles for a very long time.......

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Not supposed to be good for older barrels with softer steel, basically pre 1890s or so.
Will probably be ok with this gun, but in my old marlin they are terrible and go all over the place.

has anyone tried to resize a copper jacket projectile down from 430 to 427-428 if lubed well going through a lee tumble lube die it may not distort the projectile to much I may give that a try

The older Winchesters that are suitable for smokeless loads and jacketed projectiles were introduced during the mid 1890's (it varies slightly from model to model) and the barrels are marked 'Nickel Steel'. Prior to that they were softer carbon steel and designed for black powder and lead bullets. Having said that, many thousands of old Winchesters have been used with smokeless loads for years without any ill effects, subject to proper cleaning.