Thread: Andrew Mackenzie/Macks Ordanance/Outdoor Outfitters/ All round Bullshitter!

There are 2 pieces of legislation that are intended to protect you here.
The supplier is in trade, so the Fair Trading Act applies. And the Consumers Gaurantee Act.
On what you have said, It sounds like an issue of misrepresentation.

If you freight the rifle back to him, he would be liable for your transaction costs if he is at fault in law. You can't just sit on your hands and do nothing, because you have an obligation to do what you can to mitigate.

Of course no one has heard the other side of story yet, so fault or blame should not be attributed to the seller too quickly.
You both have rights, and the right one of you will likely prevail That's what consumer law is for.

Does nobody else find it odd that the seller, being in the trade, claimed not to have a borescope

Does anybody find that if it was a genuine mistake it wasn't sorted out there's to much competition out there to give shit service these days there's a few places I won't deal with because of this

The best you can do here is work thru the process of getting your money back in a calm and unemotive fashion. (I'm not for minute suggesting that this is not the case)

Arm with yourself with the facts regarding the relative laws that are there to protect the consumer, and work thru the process.

Tahr's recommendations above are spot on

Here are some websites that may help you

https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles...sRoaAi9e8P8HAQ
Consumer Guarantees Act | Consumer Affairs

https://www.consumer.org.nz/articles/fair-trading-act
Fair Trading Act

regards

Tim

Whatever you do don't just write it off to a bad experience and let the seller get away with it. Pursue your refund to ends of the earth if you have to. So many good people out there, yet we still have to suffer the odd mongrel to spoil it all.

All good advice.

Having been down the disputes route recently with a solid win it's tempting. I'm in the process of deciding whether to do this again.

Im all for Andrew coming on here to share his side of the story - that's why I tagged him in. There's not a whole lot to share, take away the irrelevant information and (to me) it's pretty simple. The seller is saying the bores in great condition - and remember that this is someone in the gun trade so there should be no confusion. He has stated heonly gives refunds if the product is not in the condition as described. I think the photos I've posted in the other thread show what condition it's in.

time to decide what to do and I do appreciate everyone's input From all sides of the coin.

Would be good for him to explain his side of the story here.

Originally Posted by Pengy

Does nobody else find it odd that the seller, being in the trade, claimed not to have a borescope

I have had dealings with 2 of the major shops up my way where they stated "no, we don't have a borescope" when asked. Ripleys believe or not methinks. There was some discomfort when I produced my scope to examine their goods for sale. One shop it was a savour and I departed cash in hand, the other shop I went and bought the rifle even though the bore was not perfect. If the big guys say they haven't, the doubting thomas I am I don't necessarily believe them. Smaller shops don't seem to genuinely have scopes. What do they say - "believe noting of what you are told and only half of what you see".

Originally Posted by Pengy

Does nobody else find it odd that the seller, being in the trade, claimed not to have a borescope

That would depend. Thee are situations where a borescope is not readily available. I am not certain Our smith has one but he has access to one if he needs it. In a lot of cases a bore scope can be a bit misleading, in others it is exactly the tool for the job.

I had a rifle a few years back that was an 8x57 mauser express. It was in very good overall condition and shot very well. Someone "checked" with a borescope. Verdict was pitting and erosion in the throat : barrel needs replacing, while safe it will not be accurate. Result: I refunded the money. I tested it in practise and found it to be a very accurate shooter. Someone else decided they wanted it so funds exchanged and rifle has a new home. I was clear on the condition and the results of the rifle, and price reflected that (It was the same price originally sold and refunded). New owner was very happy.

Borescopes have their uses and will show you what it looks like, but not necessarily what it will perform like. In most situations with 2nd hand firearms, overall condition and performance are more important to buyers than what the inside looks like. Just like you should not judge a car by its KMs. (High ks and looked after will still be better than low ks near new and abused). By all means, if you have access to a borescope and want to look then it is your right to do so just as its your right to decide if you want to pay for it or leave it there. In this case described by the original poster, I would also be upset and rightly so, due to the condition being misrepresented. I would also consider the response by the original seller to be disappointing.

But a couple points I will add-

As a business we too ask for the product back before a refund is tendered. Under the various acts involved, the seller has the right to remedy the problem before a refund is offered. Otherwise any customer could buy something, demand a refund and then not return the item. While most honest traders would not do this, I promise every small business will be a victim as the few unscrupulous ones would do this for easy money.

In addition to that there could be other issues at play. (I am not saying there are, but could be). For example if the barrel that was sent was not the barrel that was originally checked. Rather than a refund the seller is allowed to replace it with another if that fits the criteria involved. If the description says "as new condition" the "as new" should be what you get.

There is protection for the buyer to ensure you get what you are paying for. And in this case I would have expected more action from the seller. Especially considering the lack of service in getting it to start with. Something does not sound right at all. The stalling and delays in shipping ring all sorts of alarm bells. There may have been a legitimate reason, but in the interests of good service, this should have been communicated to the buyer before they asked.

Customer service counts for far more than people realise. No matter how hard we check things, clean them and work on them, human error will mean occasionally a dud will happen. The true telling of quality is what happens then. How is it dealt with? I recently had a similar issue with a 22 I sold. It was new, but the buyer is concerned about an aspect of its function. I have taken the customer to the range with another example of the rifle they purchased and made sure they were happy with it and have now replaced it. I will then examine the returned one and find out what (if anything) is wrong with it. It appears minor but as we could not replicate it I will have to keep looking. I would rather replace an item and keep the customer happy even if there is no fault. In this case we are entitled to fix any issue rather than replace, but the decision to replace is ours to make. If the Gunsmith is on hand I could have easily decided to remedy the issue rather than replace. I chose replace for the simple fact that with the time delay, I did not think it was fair to the customer to have to wait for something they had just purchased. If I could have fixed it inside a short time frame I am entitled to and probably would have.

Repco and jaycar electronics sell engine inspection "bore scopes" with a 4 mm camera head

Extremely cheap and often they have an app for your phone where pictures can be taken and saved

No excuse not to have a digital borescope these days

I had Andrew ceracoat a part for me , job was done almost 100% .... small area not coated as if touching something while it baked .... sent Andrew photos just to let him know that the defect was there as I received it , heard nothing back , but if I remember correctly , he took a longer time than talked about to do the job , and was hard to get answers from ... we all get busy I understand that , ... but I was getting a little nervous ....

Originally Posted by Pengy

Does nobody else find it odd that the seller, being in the trade, claimed not to have a borescope

Lots of people don't have borescopes. Gunsmiths and "gunsmiths" included

Good write-up there timattalon.

Originally Posted by gimp

Lots of people don't have borescopes. Gunsmiths and "gunsmiths" included

I find that odd. I paint houses for a living and would not get far without a brush or two

Some people consider a bore in good condition to be one where they can still see the rifling. I am not one of those people so I think you should get your money back. Having said that it's a beautiful stock, nice action and pitted barrels can still shoot well (although they need a lot of cleaning).

On a similar note H&F don't consider a multi thousand dollar shotgun to be faulty unless it jams on more than one round per box. Buy local and you get after sales service they say. Sigh....